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The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

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Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#81
post #2

I'm happy to see that, while he did something wrong, because he was honest and openly remorseful throughout, he ended up not going to prison. The cops even seemed cordial, they let him get breakfast and a smoke. I wonder how differently things would have played out if he lived in the US.

I think the German police clearly thought he was not going to get justice from the US (hence the remarks about how lucky he was that they got him before he got on the plane) and saved him from falling into the FBI's trap.

Please. Do we need any more anti-US rhetoric here?

I see no reason to believe that he would have been treated differently by the FBI, and besides, he would probably have been extradited right back to Germany.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#82
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is it safe to assume that the German police are quite a bit more sensible than their American counterparts? It depends. Gun ownership isn't nearly as common in the US, so they can safely assume that a 17 year old blackhat won't pull a gun on them. On the other hand, I've seen a ~4.9 feet tall girl getting knocked unconsciously with a Mp5 during the eviction of a squat. In 2003, a schizophrenic in custody was beaten…

The difference between Germany and the US? Those types incidents are uncommon enough that you can remember individual occurrences.

ANYWHERE you get people whose jobs are power-over-others based, you'll get fuckwads taking those jobs to feel powerful. Then abusing those jobs for the same reason. It has nothing to do with the nation and everything to do with the nature of people and policework.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#83
Unless it is a small project and works without a dataceter the sourcecode itself is useless. Yet, so many people believe that there is actually any (usable) value in the source code alone.

I flunked (thank god) an interview with a company once that ended up going belly up. The capital came from angel investors (mostly lawyers). When they ran out of money they locked everybody out of the premises (even though all their stuff was still in the building) for the fear somebody would take the source. This was 6 or 7 years ago.. To this date these lawyers still sit on their precious source code.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#84
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't fully buy this concept of "morally wrong". You ask what kind of person could do X considering consequences Y for victim, but that presumes the person knows and understands Y, which in this case, they didn't. So no, they are not necessarily an asshole because of this. I also think it's deeply immature to divide the world into black and white, good and bad, and put curious kids on the bad side of the line with…

I don't fully buy this concept of "morally wrong". So you're totally okay with me beating your [underspecified relative] so badly they're in chronic pain for the rest of their lives then?

I think that you're mis-interpreting the statement. He's not stating that he doesn't believe in morality. He's stating that he doesn't fully buy this concept of "morally wrong." I.e. He's doesn't believe in the same ideas as the poster he was replying to.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#85
Automatic weapons were pointing at his head and the words "Get out of bed. Do not touch the keyboard" were ringing in his ears.

Would they really have shot him in the head if he touched the keyboard? My guess is no.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#86

I was in a similar position once, many years ago, in the early days of the web. I had managed to get parts of the source code to a popular online game (no real hacking here, they left a tarball in an open directory I stumbled upon), and being a foolish young kid, I decided to brag about my insider knowledge of unfinished features on a website. A few weeks later, the company contacted me with a job offer... they just…

Nice. I guess whoever lives at 1600 Pennsylvania Ave. is getting a few extra bucks a month now.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was criminal and morally wrong. But the law allows for intent as well. From the article, it seems that his acts were committed as a result of maximal fanboyism rather than any real intent to do harm. So, in this case, it's about whether the sentencing is punishment or deterrent. Sentencing as deterrent is only useful a small part of the time (if it was more effective, then the death penalty would be an excellent d…

Any toddler knows it's wrong to steal a candy bar. I'm pretty sure every teenager smart enough to do so knows it's wrong to hack into a company's network, download their corporate secrets and distribute them to the internet. Deterrance is absolutely the point of punishment. What he did was a white-collar crime. There's a perception in society that you can get away with certain extremely harmful things, like hacking o…

  > There's a perception in society that you can get away with certain
  > extremely harmful things, like hacking or financial crime or
  > environmental pollution, because it's hard to pin down intent
  > and the results are hard to measure.
I think that you're mis-directing anger here. 'Hacking' in some cases (in the US at least) carries harsher penalties than other more heinous crimes (regardless of the amount of damage done). Hackers usually face stiff minimum penalties (in the US). Had he been tried in the US he probably would have spend a decade or more in federal prison, and been destitute and/or a 'product of the system' by the time that he got out. This would have increased the chance that he would re-offend (and just not be stupid enough to get caught this time).

  > * Hacking Valve. Damage: $250,000,000. Punishment: 2 years probation.
Do you really believe that Valve lost $250M? That number is probably equivalent to the amount of money that Valve had invested into the Half-Life 2 source code at that point in time or the amount of money that they expected to earn through that source code. In hind-sight, Valve didn't lose much. They were still able to monetize their source code, and were very successful at it. Do you really think that there are people out there that did not buy Half-Life 2 because they downloaded the source code to a broken pre-release version of it? Do you really think that there are any serious commercial game companies out there that are using the leaked source code in their code base rather than licensing the engine from Valve?

The amount of 'damages' that Valve incurred due to this is/was speculative. Of course, once the initial estimate comes out, Valve isn't going to go back and state what the actual damages were, because then people would question why the initial estimate was so high. There are also perverse incentives to inflate those numbers:

- Larger damages get more attention from the FBI.

- Larger damages are more likely to see harsher action by the justice system (aka courts).

- Larger damages garner more sympathy from the public.

- Larger damages can make you look like a hero to investors when the reality turns out to not be so bleak. You can always spin yourself as the hero that saved the company from financial ruin.

- Larger damages make the incident a likely scapegoat should the financial quarter be tough on the company (much like piracy is the scapegoat for the MPAA). E.g. "Yea we did poorly, but it wasn't our fault! It was all that darn hacker!" When in reality the leak had nothing to do with the losses.

  > Yeah, it worked out with Bernie Madoff, actually. Still it
  > doesn't seem proportionate to his crimes.
What exactly should the punishment for Madoff be? 1000 years in prison? I somehow don't think that extra prison time would be much of a deterrent or a punishment. (Unless you're advocating torture, but in that case, you've really shown us your true colors.)

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#88
post #77
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Once, when riding through a neighbor's land as a shortcut to a far piece of his own ranch, Theodore Roosevelt and some of his men came across a stray calf. The rules of the range were that any stray calf would be branded with the mark of whoever owned the land on which the calf was found, and everyone carried branding irons of his neighbor's for that purpose. Roosevelt built a fire, but one of his men put Roosevelt's…

This is a nice story however I don't think the same principal should apply in this case. You have to look at intention of the behavior to judge ones character like Roosevelt did. In Roosevelt's case the intention was clear, the guy took away from another and knowingly disregarded the loss the other guy suffered. It's this character of hurting others to benefit self that made the behavior bad and immoral. In this kid'…

He took away something so scarce it's irreplaceable: their secrecy/confidentiality. And if it wasn't for self-gain, who on Earth's gain was it? He committed a pre-meditated (for months) crime to fulfil his own whims.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#89

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you aren't. And what I find galling about the article is how they go out of their way to use sympathetic language in describing him. Just one example: "Gembe's malware crimes, while undeniably exploitative and damaging, were crimes driven by a passion for games rather than profits." I understand that it is important to explore his motivations, but the way this is phrased (in particular what seems to be an attempt…

> in particular what seems to be an attempt to contrast the boy's "passion" with Valves lust for "profits" Wow, did you read the same sentence I did? They weren't implying Valve had a lust for profits, they were indicating that Gembe wasn't motivated by profit. I think you're reading way too much into that particular sentence. > I see a lot of comments on this that are sympathetic to the kid, and while I understand t…

>Wow, did you read the same sentence I did? They weren't implying Valve had a lust for profits, they were indicating that Gembe wasn't motivated by profit.

Fair enough. I think its a fairly straightforward example. Reading it again, I still think its fairly obvious that the piece was designed to minimize the clearly stupid, clearly wrong actions of an individual, and in order to do so, they needed to paint Valve as the villain. But I appreciate that this is my own interpretation and certainly one could read it differently. (The example I cited should have been changed regardless, as I don't think its necessary to the story and to me still reads as an attempt to vilify Gembe's victim).

> we can see that it didn't actually affect them negatively in any tangible way

Red herring. This probably helped Valve's sales, but that doesn't mean that it necessarily would have, and has nothing to do with the morality/legality of the matter, and as such, it has very little impact on my view of Gembe's actions.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#90

I was in a similar position once, many years ago, in the early days of the web. I had managed to get parts of the source code to a popular online game (no real hacking here, they left a tarball in an open directory I stumbled upon), and being a foolish young kid, I decided to brag about my insider knowledge of unfinished features on a website. A few weeks later, the company contacted me with a job offer... they just…

Out of all the ways they could have caught you, a job offer? That's hilarious.

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