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The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

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Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#41

Post by icarus_drowning »

bluesnowmonkey wrote: post #35

Am I the only one who thinks what he did was not only criminal but morally wrong, and that he deserved to go to prison for a long time? I realize that everybody likes to call themselves a "hacker" because they can program a computer, but this is an actual black-hat hacker. There are bad guys in the world and he's one of them. He wrote malware. He stole source code and gave it to the world. And this wasn't some evil c…

No, you aren't. And what I find galling about the article is how they go out of their way to use sympathetic language in describing him. Just one example:

"Gembe's malware crimes, while undeniably exploitative and damaging, were crimes driven by a passion for games rather than profits."

I understand that it is important to explore his motivations, but the way this is phrased (in particular what seems to be an attempt to contrast the boy's "passion" with Valves lust for "profits") is pretty terrible. I don't think his "pure" motivations matter at all-- what matters is that he chose to steal the property of Valve and make it available to others. Whether Gembe meant for it to end up on the internet doesn't matter when it ends up on the internet.

I see a lot of comments on this that are sympathetic to the kid, and while I understand that feeling, I think a more sensible look at the situation demands that you feel sorry for him because he brought this upon himself, not because he was any kind of "victim".

I'm glad to see that he was able to get on with his life, and I probably don't agree with what U.S. authorities would like to have sentenced him to had they gotten ahold of him. But that doesn't make him the persecuted hero that so many people seem to think he is. And that doesn't mean he shouldn't have done some jail time either.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#42

Post by burgerbrain »

bluesnowmonkey wrote: post #35

Am I the only one who thinks what he did was not only criminal but morally wrong, and that he deserved to go to prison for a long time? I realize that everybody likes to call themselves a "hacker" because they can program a computer, but this is an actual black-hat hacker. There are bad guys in the world and he's one of them. He wrote malware. He stole source code and gave it to the world. And this wasn't some evil c…

So let me get this straight, because this wasn't "some evil corporation", but rather a corporation who "make cool games", you think that some kid deserves a "long time" in fucking PRISON?

Are you not familiar with the American justice system at all? I have a hard time wishing American prison on murders and rapists, people who do actual tangible harm to people.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#43

Post by barrkel »

bluesnowmonkey wrote: post #35

Am I the only one who thinks what he did was not only criminal but morally wrong, and that he deserved to go to prison for a long time? I realize that everybody likes to call themselves a "hacker" because they can program a computer, but this is an actual black-hat hacker. There are bad guys in the world and he's one of them. He wrote malware. He stole source code and gave it to the world. And this wasn't some evil c…

I don't fully buy this concept of "morally wrong". You ask what kind of person could do X considering consequences Y for victim, but that presumes the person knows and understands Y, which in this case, they didn't. So no, they are not necessarily an asshole because of this.

I also think it's deeply immature to divide the world into black and white, good and bad, and put curious kids on the bad side of the line with the rapists and murderers. The world isn't black and white. The perspective on the other side of the line can be quite different; and the people who really are bad are probably more in need of being locked up for medical reasons than some biblical, retributive, medieval eye for an eye logic of punishment

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#44

Post by drivingmenuts »

bluesnowmonkey wrote: post #35

Am I the only one who thinks what he did was not only criminal but morally wrong, and that he deserved to go to prison for a long time? I realize that everybody likes to call themselves a "hacker" because they can program a computer, but this is an actual black-hat hacker. There are bad guys in the world and he's one of them. He wrote malware. He stole source code and gave it to the world. And this wasn't some evil c…

It was criminal and morally wrong.

But the law allows for intent as well. From the article, it seems that his acts were committed as a result of maximal fanboyism rather than any real intent to do harm.

So, in this case, it's about whether the sentencing is punishment or deterrent. Sentencing as deterrent is only useful a small part of the time (if it was more effective, then the death penalty would be an excellent deterrent - which it appears not to be). Sentencing as punishment really depends on the person being sentenced and in his case, he actually worked pretty hard to turn his life around.

So, from the article, it appears he got what was coming to him, without having to waste his life in prison, where it does no one any good.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#45

Post by protomyth »

sukuriant wrote: post #38
mey wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Valve maintains systems that contain sensitive financial information, sensitive internal IP, and a whole library of external IP from other publishers. This wasn't a script kiddie pulling things off bit-torrent, this was an elaborate penetration into a corporate network. If I was in Valve's position, I would blackball him from working there because he couldn't be trusted, and the damage he caused. Damage caused was at…

I haven't the faintest clue about how accurate the sort of story I'm about to use as a counter-point is, but what about capable hackers that succeed in breaking into government servers then being given a choice to either work for said government organization, or go to jail for a very long time? Assuming those sorts of cases actually happen, how is this any different?

A lot of those stories are more in the realm of folklore, and the agencies that are said to have offered such choices have "alternate choices" for reduction in personnel than a private business has if the arrangement doesn't work out.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#46

Post by zx76 »

ztan wrote: post #11

I found the story to be quite tragic. This kid really saw the people at Valve as his heroes. Valve knew this and totally abused of that fact. They tricked him and was planning to hand him to the FBI, despite the fact he was (still is) their biggest fan and that the leak was accidental. I would have really hired him if I was in Gabe's position. He had both passion and skills. I think he would make an awesome YC applic…

Once, when riding through a neighbor's land as a shortcut to a far piece of his own ranch, Theodore Roosevelt and some of his men came across a stray calf. The rules of the range were that any stray calf would be branded with the mark of whoever owned the land on which the calf was found, and everyone carried branding irons of his neighbor's for that purpose. Roosevelt built a fire, but one of his men put Roosevelt's brand on the calf. Roosevelt fired him on the spot. The man protested that he had put Roosevelt's brand on the calf, and Roosevelt replied "Any man who would steal for me would steal from me."

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#48

Post by __david__ »

icarus_drowning wrote: post #41
bluesnowmonkey wrote: post #35

Am I the only one who thinks what he did was not only criminal but morally wrong, and that he deserved to go to prison for a long time? I realize that everybody likes to call themselves a "hacker" because they can program a computer, but this is an actual black-hat hacker. There are bad guys in the world and he's one of them. He wrote malware. He stole source code and gave it to the world. And this wasn't some evil c…

No, you aren't. And what I find galling about the article is how they go out of their way to use sympathetic language in describing him. Just one example: "Gembe's malware crimes, while undeniably exploitative and damaging, were crimes driven by a passion for games rather than profits." I understand that it is important to explore his motivations, but the way this is phrased (in particular what seems to be an attempt…

> in particular what seems to be an attempt to contrast the boy's "passion" with Valves lust for "profits"

Wow, did you read the same sentence I did? They weren't implying Valve had a lust for profits, they were indicating that Gembe wasn't motivated by profit. I think you're reading way too much into that particular sentence.

> I see a lot of comments on this that are sympathetic to the kid, and while I understand that feeling, I think a more sensible look at the situation demands that you feel sorry for him because he brought this upon himself, not because he was any kind of "victim".

I see the comments here differently--I don't think anyone thinks he's strictly innocent, I think people are sympathetic because he was looking down the barrel of the American Corporate Legal System™ and only narrowly escaped.

I understand Valve's anger at having their stuff ripped off and published around the internet and if I were in their position I might have the same outlook. But, having the gift of 20/20 hindsight, we can see that it didn't actually affect them negatively in any tangible way. Half-life 2 was released and overwhelmingly successful and there are no game engines with stolen Valve code stealing licensing profits from them.

So I am sympathetic to the fact that he escaped any jail time because in the end what he did didn't matter. 2 Years of probation seems perfectly appropriate.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#49

Post by true_religion »

kd0amg wrote: post #17
true_religion wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Double Jeopardy doesn't protect you from being tried in multiple jurisdictions. An American example is the "D.C. Snipper" who was charged in Maryland, Virginia, and D.C. to maximize jailtime and possibility of conviction.

Was that all for a single crime, or did each trial cover separate instances?

They were treated as seperate instances since the crimes were committed against people in X jurisdiction. That's applicable in this case as well since the Valve folk are in the US jurisdiction.

Re: The Boy Who Stole Half-Life 2

#50

Post by ars »

burgerbrain wrote: post #40
thomasz wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> is it safe to assume that the German police are quite a bit more sensible than their American counterparts? It depends. Gun ownership isn't nearly as common in the US, so they can safely assume that a 17 year old blackhat won't pull a gun on them. On the other hand, I've seen a ~4.9 feet tall girl getting knocked unconsciously with a Mp5 during the eviction of a squat. In 2003, a schizophrenic in custody was beaten…

The difference between Germany and the US? Those types incidents are uncommon enough that you can remember individual occurrences.

Oh come on, they are quite rare in the US as well, and the US is a LOT larger than Germany.
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