Alvaro de Menard wrote an excellent summary of the long debate surrounding the Who was Homer? question. In his article [1] de Menard describes how Parry’s hypothesis accounted for aspects of the Iliad and Odyssey that could not be explained cleanly by prior theories. [1]: https://fantasticanachronism.com/2020/01/17/having-had-no-pr... "Having Had No Predecessor to Imitate, He Had No Successor Capable of Imitating Him…
Thank you, that is a much better article on the subject.
How Do We Know That Epic Poems Were Recited from Memory?
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Re: How Do We Know That Epic Poems Were Recited from Memory?
#22This is how the books of the Odyssey are structured: TROY ---- 1. Kikones (innocent city is ambushed) 2. Lotus Eaters (temptation, delay) 3. Cyclops (monster) 4. Aeolus (greedy crew delays journey) 5. Laestrygonians (monster) 6. Circe (temptation) 7. HADES 8. Sirens (temptation) 9. Scylla (monster) 10. Cattle/Sun (greedy crew delays journey) 11. Charybdis (monster) 12. Calypso (temptation, delay) 13. Phaecia (innocen…
Re: How Do We Know That Epic Poems Were Recited from Memory?
#23https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4ee8/15e13dd1afd301639f7167...
Re: How Do We Know That Epic Poems Were Recited from Memory?
#24I read some of the classic epics before learning about their mode of delivery and memorization, and was a bit perplexed at some of the repetitions and formulae. Then I learned that, for example, some characters would have multiple epithets (grey-eyed, neat-ankled, all-seeing, etc) that in Greek would be selected essentially not because they were the best descriptor, but because they were the ones that would complete…
Yep, all of the "wine-dark sea"s and "rosy-fingered dawn"s might have worked as filler while the poet was queueing up the next part of the narrative.
A saxon kenning for poet is “story-weaver”, and that’s actually very apt.
Re: How Do We Know That Epic Poems Were Recited from Memory?
#25Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yep, all of the "wine-dark sea"s and "rosy-fingered dawn"s might have worked as filler while the poet was queueing up the next part of the narrative.
kennings, as this game is called in anglo-saxon, aren’t filler per se. Though they are also a memory aide (for the poet and the audience), they are primarily part of the way the skill of a scop (bard/epic poet) was judged was by how cleverly he could choose the right kenning for the mood and meter of where in the poem he was. A saxon kenning for poet is “story-weaver”, and that’s actually very apt.
Re: How Do We Know That Epic Poems Were Recited from Memory?
#26Wait, what?
Re: How Do We Know That Epic Poems Were Recited from Memory?
#27Earlier quoted context omitted.
kennings, as this game is called in anglo-saxon, aren’t filler per se. Though they are also a memory aide (for the poet and the audience), they are primarily part of the way the skill of a scop (bard/epic poet) was judged was by how cleverly he could choose the right kenning for the mood and meter of where in the poem he was. A saxon kenning for poet is “story-weaver”, and that’s actually very apt.
Yes, it reminds me of the "memory palace" trick that's taught for remembering e.g. numbers by associating them with a series of images. And similar tricks with "themes", audible or visual, are still used for particular characters in some modern media.
Re: How Do We Know That Epic Poems Were Recited from Memory?
#28I read some of the classic epics before learning about their mode of delivery and memorization, and was a bit perplexed at some of the repetitions and formulae. Then I learned that, for example, some characters would have multiple epithets (grey-eyed, neat-ankled, all-seeing, etc) that in Greek would be selected essentially not because they were the best descriptor, but because they were the ones that would complete…
Re: How Do We Know That Epic Poems Were Recited from Memory?
#29They could memorize thousands of lines of poetry, and improvise it on the go, all while singing to a melody. I think that's pretty badass, quite frankly.
Re: How Do We Know That Epic Poems Were Recited from Memory?
#30This is how the books of the Odyssey are structured: TROY ---- 1. Kikones (innocent city is ambushed) 2. Lotus Eaters (temptation, delay) 3. Cyclops (monster) 4. Aeolus (greedy crew delays journey) 5. Laestrygonians (monster) 6. Circe (temptation) 7. HADES 8. Sirens (temptation) 9. Scylla (monster) 10. Cattle/Sun (greedy crew delays journey) 11. Charybdis (monster) 12. Calypso (temptation, delay) 13. Phaecia (innocen…
I'm unsure of your point here--isn't memorizing the text itself much harder than knowing this kind of high level structure, which I venture many people had/have no conscious awareness of anyway?
I saw an amateur pianist sit down to play (a solo piano version of) Gershwin's "Rhapsody in Blue". He took from his pocket a bit of paper containing, not the actual score of the piece, but a lot of things of the form "Starts in Bb major", "Modulates to F major", "twiddly bit", and so on. Having put that in front of him, he proceeded to play the whole piece. Correctly, so far as I know.
Caveats:
1. n=1.
2. "Rhapsody in Blue" is probably an extreme example of a piece where this sort of thing would be useful. Here's a wonderful quotation from Leonard Bernstein: "The Rhapsody is not a composition at all. It's a string of separate paragraphs stuck together. The themes are terrific, inspired, God-given. I don't think there has been such an inspired melodist on this earth since Tchaikovsky. But if you want to speak of a composer, that's another matter. Your Rhapsody in Blue is not a real composition in the sense that whatever happens in it must seem inevitable. You can cut parts of it without affecting the whole. You can remove any of these stuck-together sections and the piece still goes on as bravely as before. It can be a five-minute piece or a twelve-minute piece. And in fact, all these things are being done to it every day. And it's still the Rhapsody in Blue."
3. This was years and years ago -- either 1987 or 1988 -- and my memory may be unreliable.
4. The amateur pianist in question was a teenager; maybe memory develops and/or degenerates with age in ways that would make this less relevant for adults.
5. Music versus poetry.
But it seems plausible to me. I have never memorized anything within three orders of magnitude of the length of the Odyssey or the Iliad, but e.g. when I was a stupid child I learned ~100 digits of pi, I learned them in 10-digit chunks, and right now I think I can remember what all the chunks were but I wouldn't want to place any bets on getting them in the right order. Of course digits of pi are more or less random and epic poems have narrative structure -- but making use of that narrative structure is exactly what GP is talking about doing.