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DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

cyberlaw.stanford.edu

291–300 of 347 posts

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#291
post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm having trouble understanding why people would say mathematical functions are bad. Encryption is more than just mathematical functions, it's the application of mathematical functions. And the application is what matters, because it would be easy to say a Nuclear weapon is just physics or that a bio-weapon is just chemistry. Clearly, how you use basic principles matters.

It isn't like Nuclear weapons, though, because every single computer has everything you need to do full encryption. Nuclear weapons require materials, manufacturing, etc. Nuclear weapons require both the knowledge and the physical world parts.... encryption just requires the knowledge, which is impossible to put back in the box.

Every house has the basic materials for a bomb, and many houses have the basic materials for a big bomb (especially if you use fertilizer). The difference is understanding how to use it.

Every computer is capable of building software that can bring society to its knees, but most people don't know how to do it. Software is just algorithms, after all.

The problem is that law enforcement pushes the bad uses of something without weighing it with the good. If fertilizer can be used to make bombs, should be ban fertilizer? No, that's throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Unfortunately, many voters don't fully understand what the baby is WRT encryption, they just see child porn, human trafficking, etc.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#292

So terrorists will use one-time pads and other strong encryption and everyone else will have their information exposed on a massive scale when the backdoors inevitably are exploited.

OTPs are impractical to use for average people, while their use is entirely tractable (and widespread) for covert operations.

OTPs are not a replacement for our current encryption systems, but I love them as an example of how encryption isn't going to go away.

A children's book would be a great demonstration of this, and should be protected speech (let's hope). Teach kids how to use OTPs in an illustrated book. Maybe the story ends with 5 year old Jimmy getting hauled away by the feds for doing some illegal math.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having exceptional access is important to keeping and improving society. It’s unethical to ignore and fight LE’s ongoing needs regarding such access. E2EE at scale, unchecked, is an extreme viewpoint with trade offs that I consider unethical at best, and fundamentally dangerous at worst.

You haven't explained why , you're just re-asserting what the comment you replied to was expecting you to explain.

I did

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#294

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> who should I be more worried about having my information and having more power Wu. Constructing a "lesser evil" choice is simply a way of justifying evil. > Google to advertise to me better It's not mere "advertising". Google's surveillance trove will be exploited for economic gain in unenumerable ways. Sort individuals into classes, market a message of safety, and discriminate to keep the undesirables away - it's…

Constructing a "lesser evil" choice is simply a way of justifying evil. On the scale of “lesser evil” the government being able to arrest, harass, violate civil liberties and lock someone up is off the charts compared to what big tech can do. Sure that may be prudent, but it is not morally right nor is it sustainable. And backfitting from "what is" to "what should be" is never a good idea. So I should be more worried…

Your comment comes from a perspective of having been abused. While I respect your struggle, stressed analysis is not good when trying to foresee where the next source of abuse will come from.

The commercial surveillance industry is not currently engaging in abuse on the scale the government has previously committed, but the government is not presently doing so either! Yet we are rightly concerned with setups that make such things possible - for example I presume you don't just chuckle at white supremacy protestors for being on the wrong side of history, but view them as a threat that could gain momentum any time.

The commercial surveillance industry is currently poised with a more invasive scope into everyone's personal life than a government could ever have, operates autocratically, and actively resists the desires of its targets to opt out (eg Do Not Track). That last bit puts them deeper into the domain of wielding governmental power than a straightforward monopoly. Trusting the people controlling these companies to be benevolent is a setup for failure.

> You realize that you want to give the government more power

I don't see something like the GDPR as giving the government more power, but rather just shifting it around. Government and corporate power are merging regardless (hence this thread), and it's better to have the result under democratic control than fully autocratic. The real solution is of course for people to shift to using software that they control (and hence can actually represent them), but unfortunately that seems a long ways off, or at least unevenly distributed.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#295

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I will always error on the side of privacy even if that means not everyone bad is caught. Reminds me of something my dad always told me, "I'd rather see 10 guilty people walk free, than have 1 innocent person in jail."

I'm not a historian, but I don't think your dad came up with that first...

They never said he did. Just that he said it.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#296

Earlier quoted context omitted.

LE in which jurisdiction(s)? If the E2EE is widely used, the "needs" of local LE will be varied and often contradictory.

This is one of many excellent arguments against such backdoors. The US would like backdoors into everyone's communications, and doesn't want anyone else to have them. China would like backdoors into everyone's communications, and doesn't want anyone else to have them. Every country and jurisdiction would like backdoors into everyone's communications, and doesn't want anyone else to have them.

In America, our govt

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#297
Shouldn't the US government be pushing good encryption? I wonder what sort of world we would be living in if the NSA had spent 1/2 as much time over the last 10 years trying to protect Americans from hacking as they do trying to spy on Americans.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#298
post #14

Why does this say that the DOJ has been pushing for this since 2016? They have been pushing for some variation on this since basically forever. I first became aware of it back under Clinton with the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip . And the debate has been essentially the same since. Law enforcement wants to be able to break security, and promises that their super secret, super safe system will provide eve…

it's an election year, might as well try to link all this to Trump! (although, as you've noted this has been happening for quite a while across all parties)

He didn't start it, but he isn't stopping it either. In fact, he's making it worse.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're being too binary about this. Yes, we should be skeptical of law enforcement. Judicial oversight is essential. But we should still care about police effectiveness at catching law breakers. Why have laws if they can't be enforced?

It is you and law enforcement who are being binary. Plenty of laws are currently being enforced in the presence of strong encryption. The sky hasn't fallen. In fact, these high profile cases the FBI et al attempt to use as wedges generally involve someone who has already been caught with plenty of evidence, but the authoritarian impulse still demands more . As far as laws that can only be enforced/observed by reading…

If we're agreed that there is no deep principle is at stake and there are shades of grey, it seems that the difference between end-to-end encryption and link-level encryption (as cloud providers typically do) is a matter of practicality?

Law enforcement agencies send legal requests to Google and Facebook all the time, and the sky hasn't fallen.

Actually, for all X where X exists, the sky hasn't fallen :)

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#300
post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should have followed up with: Do you think having a lock on your front door is bad?

Eh. Locks can be picked and doors can be rammed. Layered encryption is really hard to break and one time pads are impossible.

So locks are only good because they don't actually work? And encryption is only good if it doesn't work too?

That logic kind of makes sense. However, locks at least delay intruders and make it harder for someone to go undetected if the break into your house. The intruder is either at your door for a little while, makes noise trying to break in, etc.

If the police bust into my house there will probably be witnesses and I will know about it. If they steal my data, how is anyone going to know? This gives them way too much power.

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