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DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

cyberlaw.stanford.edu

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Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#41

Post by 74ls00 »

newfeatureok wrote: post #31

I was talking to a layperson about encryption and privacy and they were very much against both interestingly. They compared encryption to wearing a mask in public and said if people don't want to be noticed (w.r.t privacy and encryption) they shouldn't be "participating" (it was unclear what they meant by this). Just goes to show you how the average person thinks about these things. I have to admit I wouldn't like it…

Encryption isn’t like using a mask - we can still see who is communicating with who, we just can’t see what they’re saying. Banning encryption is like banning envelopes.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#42

Post by blattimwind »

makerofspoons wrote: post #30

So terrorists will use one-time pads and other strong encryption and everyone else will have their information exposed on a massive scale when the backdoors inevitably are exploited.

OTPs are impractical to use for average people, while their use is entirely tractable (and widespread) for covert operations.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#43

Post by alistairSH »

newfeatureok wrote: post #31

I was talking to a layperson about encryption and privacy and they were very much against both interestingly. They compared encryption to wearing a mask in public and said if people don't want to be noticed (w.r.t privacy and encryption) they shouldn't be "participating" (it was unclear what they meant by this). Just goes to show you how the average person thinks about these things. I have to admit I wouldn't like it…

Ask them if they'd be ok with the mailman reading all their ingoing and outgoing mail. If they say "Yes", at least they're being consistent.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#44

Post by jliptzin »

I guess it comes down to who are you more afraid of? Terrorists and pedophiles or law enforcement with unlimited power and resources to spy on you and imprison you. Of course it's a false choice anyway, if encryption is legislated away the bad guys will very easily continue to encrypt their communications anyway, after all you can communicate with someone by shooting a wall in a game of halo if you want to.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#45

Post by tick_tock_tick »

giggles_giggles wrote: post #32
btilly wrote: post #14

Why does this say that the DOJ has been pushing for this since 2016? They have been pushing for some variation on this since basically forever. I first became aware of it back under Clinton with the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip . And the debate has been essentially the same since. Law enforcement wants to be able to break security, and promises that their super secret, super safe system will provide eve…

> Why does this say that the DOJ has been pushing for this since 2016? Because that's when Trump came into power and nothing bad ever happened under the Obama admin.

There seems to be some kind of intentional ignorance of just how many programs people blame Trump for have been there since Obama or even earlier.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#46

Post by quitethelogic »

giggles_giggles wrote: post #32
btilly wrote: post #14

Why does this say that the DOJ has been pushing for this since 2016? They have been pushing for some variation on this since basically forever. I first became aware of it back under Clinton with the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clipper_chip . And the debate has been essentially the same since. Law enforcement wants to be able to break security, and promises that their super secret, super safe system will provide eve…

> Why does this say that the DOJ has been pushing for this since 2016? Because that's when Trump came into power and nothing bad ever happened under the Obama admin.

The current administration came into power in January 2017.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#47

Post by cortesoft »

scarface74 wrote: post #22
Goronmon wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, you can't trust the government to oversee the tech companies. You can't trust companies to protect privacy. You can't trust voters/users to make good decisions on voting for the government or choosing the "right" companies to support. That doesn't leave a lot of options, unfortunately.

It’s called free will. You can logout of Facebook You can not use Google and use an ad ad blocker. You can buy online from some place besides Amazon You can not buy a mobile phone running an operating system written by an ad company. What you can’t easily do is change your government.

You can't solve a collective action problem just with free will, though.

You can choose not to use those services and still have your privacy invaded, through other people posting things about you, cameras in public spaces, phone tracking, etc.

You can choose to live like a recluse to avoid this (no phones, stay out of public places, don't let friends take your picture, etc), but saying that is a reasonable choice is ridiculous.

This is like people who say "well, if you don't like how the credit bureau's operate, just don't use credit! Sure, you can do that... but you won't be able to ever buy a house, get many jobs, fly on an airplane, etc. More and more restaurants and stores are even going 'cashless'. It might technically still be a choice, but it is not a reasonable one you can expect people to make.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#48

Post by strbean »

slg wrote: post #36
westmeal wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like a majority of the students had no idea what encryption was and because the authority figure (the professor) asked them whether or not it was bad they just went with it? I'm having trouble understanding why people would say mathematical functions are bad.

Encryption allows data to be locked away from the government including law enforcement and prosecutors in a way that was nearly impossible for the average citizen a few decades ago. Warrants can't break encryption like they could doors or locks. As much of life moves to the digital world and becomes encrypted, that can be a drastic change in how the justice system works. Pro-encryption people need to keep this in min…

> in a way that was nearly impossible for the average citizen a few decades ago

Ehh, maybe if you are talking about speed and scale. The average citizen could always learn how to use a one-time pad.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#49

Post by shadowgovt »

tick_tock_tick wrote: post #45
giggles_giggles wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Why does this say that the DOJ has been pushing for this since 2016? Because that's when Trump came into power and nothing bad ever happened under the Obama admin.

There seems to be some kind of intentional ignorance of just how many programs people blame Trump for have been there since Obama or even earlier.

A President (and the priorities of his administration) can make bad programs much worse.

Take marijuana enforcement as an inverse example. The federal law around marijuana hasn't changed, and it's as illegal in 2020 to use, grow, and sell as it was in 2004. But the Obama administration made clear to the DEA and FBI that pursuit and enforcement of that law in states that had passed their own laws to legalize it would be a career-limiting move, which gave the states breathing room to experiment (and allowed hard evidence to gather that allowing medicinal and recreational use wouldn't cause societal collapse or, really, almost any negative outcomes).

This aspect of the intersection of law and executive enforcement is why the Trump administration is correctly condemned for worsening the situation regarding immigration in the US. Most of the laws the administration uses have been on the books since before 2016. This administration chooses the harshest and cruelest ways to interpret and execute on those laws.

Re: DOJ plans to strike against encryption while the Techlash iron is hot

#50

Post by Jtsummers »

Buttons840 wrote: post #35
caleb-allen wrote: post #9

A small anecdote. A few years ago in an undergrad business class, we were having some discussion and the topic of encryption came up during one of my presentations. A student asked a question related to the ethics of encryption (I don't recall exactly what), and I was clearly confused by the question. To clear up confusion, the professor asked those who thought encryption was "bad" to raise their hand, and at least 6…

So in an ethics discussion the professor simply asked "is X bad?" That doesn't seem like a very enlightened ethics discussion. How certain are you he said "bad"? If he has instead asked "is encryption problematic?", the outcome can be interpreted much differently because there are problems with encryption. Especially in an ethics discussion, there are definitely pros and cons to encryption. (FWIW, the pros outweigh t…

Per GP this was in a business class likely taught by a business professor, not an ethicist or someone similarly specializing in such discussions. It's not surprising that they'd pose the question to the group in such a blunt fashion. As a CS major, I had to take an engineering and a CS ethics course and it was similarly problematic. The courses were taught by an engineering or CS professor (respectively) and ethics discussions were not their specialty.
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