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In Britain, even jails have a class system

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Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#181

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And I also think most people don't understand what prison populations look like. Federal prisons are dominated by non-violent crimes; this report states fewer than 5% of federal inmates' most serious crimes were violent offenses. (1) The proportions are different in state prisons, but there non-violent offenders still make up about half of the population. People are also completely misinformed about recidivism. Not o…

> We kill people because it's "what they deserve," as if the state has any right to decide whether its own citizens live or die. Sounds about right. True justice is to undo the damage caused by the perpetrator. Unfortunately, it's impossible to do that. There's no way to restore a murdered person back to life or restore people's ability to feel safe in their own homes after it's been violated. Some damage always rema…

> So it's all about revenge,

It's not simply just about revenge, as I noted in my comment, about there's a hundred examples outside of jail including zoning laws where we're taking this same good-intentions approach to solving the problems we see and having either nothing happen to things leaving us worse off.

The fundamental problem is fear-driven policy making by people who think they know what's best for a community and having zero tolerance for the natural chaos that is natural to society.

The more we try to tamper that chaos and create an endless series of laws without thinking (or grasping) the unintended side-effects the more this will keep happening.

I think plenty of the worst stuff in our societies results from our creations, often from idealistic attempts to make the world a better place, which in fact have had the opposite effect.

Every time we create a new law or ban something or get vindictive we need to think back to all of the times that didn't work or had the complete opposite effect.

Cities and life worked better in the post-war 1950s because we didn't have a thousand laws and projects running simultaneously trying to make the world a better place. It embraced the chaos naturally, before the NIBMY brigades and busy-bodies created a system where "they know what's best for other people" when they really didn't

For example, when the "hippies" started smoking weed, people freaked out, but maybe it really wasn't the end of the world causing all of our problems. They were normal kids just like their parents going through a phase. Then the billions we put into stopping it has left us worse off.

Likewise we need to at what other moral panics (and lesser pancis) resulted in systems that are hurting us.

I don't know exactly what the solution is but I feel like as a society we need to take a good hard look at the various systems we put in place since the post-WW2 decades and ask if it's really made the world a better place.

The highest priority of all in the US (IMO) is prison reform since that is the population numbers are the glaring massive difference that other western countries don't have. And they don't have super violent cities like the US does and maybe there's a cause and effect here, or at a minimum the vindictive nature of it all is doing nothing to actually help the problem.

The second priority is the myriad of drug laws which have so obviously backfired, then our backwards approach to building/housing which has become a massive problem in every urban area in the country.

We need to embrace the chaos again and stop trying to control every little detail like we know what's best for other people.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#182

> Atkins: People of the prisoner class have really, really bought into the capitalist dream. But they were too unlucky, ill-educated, unfortunate, or born in the wrong place to have all the things that society has told them they should have. They were taught from a very early age: You can have it all, not just the wealth but the stuff. My favorite part. They don’t realize that capitalism itself is regressing to a cla…

> ... capitalism itself is regressing to a class-based system. Capitalism has always been a class-based system. There's the people who work for wages, and the people who live off rents from their capital.

Capitalism is primarily about private property ownership to incentivize enterprise. It is more class-based when more private-property starts off in the hands of people by birth. It is more meritocratic the more that property migrates into the hands of people that work to benefit society more.

Examples of class-based systems. India's caste-system that disadvantages lower-castes. Pre-civil war America's racially implemented Constitution that disadvantaged non-whites (and women?). Fundamentalist Sharia Law systems that disadvantage non-muslims and women. You can tell you live in a more class-based capital system when the top slots are occupied more by birthright vs other systems.

BTW I think it's clearer to narrow talk to specific policies that make a system more class-based vs more meritocratic, and to remember to define them in terms of which particular groups of people they target. Because then we can see that meritocratic capitalism, boosted by the major revolutions we celebrate around the world, slowly gets eroded by things like redlining in the States, or low inheritance taxes etc.

Re: In Britain, even jails have a class system

#183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In a minimum security facility there are often no fences. I was at Morgantown and you could get anything you wanted for approximately 4x the retail value. It was so fucking hot there guys would have their families buy a "prison" issue fan on Amazon and send it to someone who's family lived in Morgantown. Then they'd run out and bring it back in the middle of the night. Cigarettes were $2 each or $20 for a pack. Dip i…

I've heard stories about people improvising "hooch" by letting apple or orange juice sit around and ferment and using that as a trade item for the other usual stuff. When I got stuck in a similar minimum security facility (no cells, just half-walls between groups of 4 beds so there was lots of socializing going on), people would trade their prescribed Seroquels and other such meds similarly. I also found out about "m…

> I've heard stories about people improvising "hooch" by letting apple or orange juice sit around and ferment and using that as a trade item for the other usual stuff.

In one federal medium I was at, the guys from maintenance had broken through the wall behind a urinal and installed a still in the wall. They used a hot plate from a coffee maker. They covered it up by replacing the tiles and "caulking" between them with the institution issued tooth paste. I used those urinals for months without ever knowing about it.

It was dismantled after the unit orderly snitched about it. That guy was murdered the next week. It turned out he had also snitched on some co-defendants for a reduced sentence.

I heard the hooch from that still was stronger than whiskey and pretty nasty tasting.

Most guys just tried to make alcohol with some bread and oranges in a trash bag stuffed in a locker or under a bunk.

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