I wonder if the file format they use to store the digitised plans will still be readable 300 years from now.
The UK does have some experience with that gang aft agley: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BBC_Domesday_Project
Secret doorway in UK Parliament leads to historical treasure trove
51–60 of 105 posts
Re: Secret doorway in UK Parliament leads to historical treasure trove
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
>A cockney accent interacting with an RP ear would make Porter and Parker quite similar Not really? The first vowel and third consonant are different in both dialects. (Note that while the 't' in Porter is subject to t-glottalization, the 'k' in Parker isn't.)
I'm sure that 1) modern inflections were exactly the same 170 years ago, and 2) builders of all ages are extremely precise and well-educated writers that would never mix up their letters. I mean, even RP was barely formalized at that point...
RP was in the process of being formalized at that point. It was a BBC project (I exaggerate slightly)[1]. The Queen’s accent used to be distinctly non Received Pronunciation if you listen to early twentieth century recordings.
Stone Masons would almost universally have been literate because you need to engrave things. Half assed graffiti could be someone who was less a skilled tradesman than a member of the guild but guild members would have been expected to be able to read the Bible at least. Knowing how to spell your own name is not a big thing if you can read the KJV. And t->k is not a sound shift observed in historical language changes.
[1] RP probably received its greatest impetus, however, when it was selected in 1922 by the BBC Advisory Committee on Spoken English as a broadcasting standard – hence the origins of the term BBC English. The Committee believed Standard English, spoken with an RP accent, would be the most widely understood variety of English, both here in the UK and overseas. Members of the committee were also conscious that choosing a regional accent might run the risk of alienating some listeners.
https://www.bl.uk/british-accents-and-dialects/articles/rece...
Re: Secret doorway in UK Parliament leads to historical treasure trove
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
To your ear you mean? Yes, both dialects are non-rhotic. I mean the third orthographically.
No, I meant to my eye; I don't speak RP. But what training I have says to analyze e.g. "parker" as CVCV, p-ar-k-er. I don't see more difficulty in saying "ar" is the first vowel in "parker" than in saying "th" is the second consonant in "wither"...
Orthographically speaking, 'p' is the first consonant, 'r' is the second consonant, and 'k' is the third consonant. Phonetically speaking, 'k' is the second consonant.
Re: Secret doorway in UK Parliament leads to historical treasure trove
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
>A cockney accent interacting with an RP ear would make Porter and Parker quite similar Not really? The first vowel and third consonant are different in both dialects. (Note that while the 't' in Porter is subject to t-glottalization, the 'k' in Parker isn't.)
I'm sure that 1) modern inflections were exactly the same 170 years ago, and 2) builders of all ages are extremely precise and well-educated writers that would never mix up their letters. I mean, even RP was barely formalized at that point...
Sure, I was just responding to the OP's claim that these two names would sound similar in "Cockney".
Re: Secret doorway in UK Parliament leads to historical treasure trove
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
No, I meant to my eye; I don't speak RP. But what training I have says to analyze e.g. "parker" as CVCV, p-ar-k-er. I don't see more difficulty in saying "ar" is the first vowel in "parker" than in saying "th" is the second consonant in "wither"...
Orthographically speaking, 'p' is the first consonant, 'r' is the second consonant, and 'k' is the third consonant. Phonetically speaking, 'k' is the second consonant.
Yes, I understand what you're saying. I am curious, though, how you would personally describe orthographic consonant clusters such as "th" and "sh", and how, in your experience, other people usually refer to them.
Re: Secret doorway in UK Parliament leads to historical treasure trove
#56There's a great (long) article on the building of the Palace of Westminster at https://www.theguardian.com/news/2017/dec/01/a-tale-of-decay... , on how new infrastructure has just been added over time, never removing the old stuff because there's no time, and—with plans being lost—how this results in new shafts being found every now and then in the course of fixing leaks etc.
By the time of the Truman presidency, apparently the White House was in such poor condition that the only way to save it was to entirely gut its interior and rebuild. It was gutted so thoroughly that they're driving heavy earth moving equipment around inside the building. There's a good photo at:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_House#Truman_reconstruct...
Looks like they kept the external walls and built a new steel frame inside.
Re: Secret doorway in UK Parliament leads to historical treasure trove
#57When I was a young boy, I had fantasies of such secret doorways/passages/treasures being everywhere due to consumption of copious stories/comics involving such plots. When I did visit old ruins/temples etc, my searching eyes would be looking for that overlooked odd stone that was waiting for centuries just to be pushed so that it can reveal its ancient secrets.
Reading this discovery of the secret doorway sort of gave me a sense of vicarious validation.
Re: Secret doorway in UK Parliament leads to historical treasure trove
#58Earlier quoted context omitted.
I'm sure that 1) modern inflections were exactly the same 170 years ago, and 2) builders of all ages are extremely precise and well-educated writers that would never mix up their letters. I mean, even RP was barely formalized at that point...
RP was in the process of being formalized at that point. It was a BBC project (I exaggerate slightly)[1]. The Queen’s accent used to be distinctly non Received Pronunciation if you listen to early twentieth century recordings. Stone Masons would almost universally have been literate because you need to engrave things. Half assed graffiti could be someone who was less a skilled tradesman than a member of the guild but…
> RP was in the process of being formalized at that point. It was a BBC project
The first record of the term is from 1818 and the second decades later, according to wikipedia, hence why I said "barely formalized". A concept of upper-class English definitely existed, but it was certainly not as precise as what we now know as RP, nor did it match modern RP - it was just in the same ballpark, so to speak.
> Knowing how to spell your own name is not a big thing if you can read the KJV.
Most labourers today can read much more than the KJV (and probably in a one-off exam, I expect people were not re-tested every other week...) and still mispellings are routine.
There are also 15 years between inscription and official recording, and changing name in the UK has always been extremely easy, so there is also the chance that Tom Porter might have tweaked his name to sound different after 15 years around the upper classes.
Re: Secret doorway in UK Parliament leads to historical treasure trove
#59When I was a young boy, I had fantasies of such secret doorways/passages/treasures being everywhere due to consumption of copious stories/comics involving such plots. When I did visit old ruins/temples etc, my searching eyes would be looking for that overlooked odd stone that was waiting for centuries just to be pushed so that it can reveal its ancient secrets. Reading this discovery of the secret doorway sort of gav…
Reading Don Rosa treasure hunts made me that way as well x)
Re: Secret doorway in UK Parliament leads to historical treasure trove
#60My honest first question when I read this is: Isn't knowing about every single passage and doorway absolutely critical to security in a facility where high risk persons work?
It seems absolutely crazy to me to think that, as a US comparison, they would let the President go anywhere that might have passages the Secret Service is unaware of.