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AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

leginfo.legislature.ca.gov

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Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#21

Post by Beltiras »

Someone1234 wrote: post #16

I'm confused by "18992.1 (B)." So if you fall on hard times (e.g. unemployment) and UBI would be most beneficial you now have to pick between UBI and health insurance? That doesn't make basic sense to me, and undermines the whole "universal" part. Plus managing those exclusions would likely cost more than it would save (imagine all the additional management overhead of cross-checking programs and or having people cer…

If Medicare 4 All is adopted then that would free up a lot of folks from that predicament.

Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#23

Post by nerdjon »

trothamel wrote: post #3

It seems that the line at the bottom about the 10% VAT on many goods and services seems just as interesting as the UBI (especially when the UBI seems to exclude many of the poorest Californians). I wonder how they will administer the VAT without other states cooperating with them.

I am very confused about the math of this, unless California has a surplus of taxes coming in.

Without even taking into account the existing tax rate in California, wouldn't this need an average of 10k of spending per person a month getting this to work out?

Then again there are enough restrictions on this (seemingly largely the ones that would actually benefit the most from this) that it actually works out...

Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#24

Post by rmah »

Can they not do basic math? There are around 30 mil adults in California. Even if provision 18992.1 (b) is 5 mil people, that's still 25 mil people. That's 25 mil * $12,000 = $300 bil a year. The ENTIRE California state budget for 2020 is only $220 bil.

They would have to more than double the tax revenue for a state with already very high taxes.

Now, assuming the most generous interpretation of their 10% VAT proposal... which means a 10% VAT on things like rent, transportation, etc. CA has around 11.5mil households with apx $40k/household of spending, which yields $460bil @ 10% => $46bil in additional tax revenue.

This won't work. It's just meaningless hot hair.

Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#26

Post by stazz1 »

vorpalhex wrote: post #10
zentiggr wrote: post #2

Good - let's have a real world test and see whether there is something behind UBI as a concept. And perhaps this'll be the first program to survive the trolls and nay-sayers who will find the smallest niche failures and sspout the "If ANYONE falls through the cracks it's a FAILURE!"

I think the issue is usually the money isn't enough to be meaningfully helpful and the cost of running the program is too high to be sustainable. However, I think another real world test to join the others is fine. You don't know the result until you do the experiment.

>You don't know the result until you do the experiment.

Same reason you don't jump off a building to test gravity. There are better ways to test than irreparably derailing an economy by +not closing the inequality gap and +causing spikes of inflation any time you dish out money, proportional to how much you dish out

Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#29

Post by bun_at_work »

asdfasgasdgasdg wrote: post #12
zentiggr wrote: post #2

Good - let's have a real world test and see whether there is something behind UBI as a concept. And perhaps this'll be the first program to survive the trolls and nay-sayers who will find the smallest niche failures and sspout the "If ANYONE falls through the cracks it's a FAILURE!"

Even in CA this has no chance of passing, right? I mean they couldn't even pass the mass transit zoning changes. CA may be relatively liberal but I don't think it has the appetite for this level of increased taxation and spending.

The thing is CA has a system where legislation can be passed by popular vote. This has it's up and down sides, but anything can pass in CA with enough public support.

Re: AB2712 – California Universal Basic Income

#30

Post by timerol »

throwaway55554 wrote: post #7

> (b) California residents who are 18 years of age or older and receiving benefits under the Medi-Cal program, the County Medical Services Program, the CalFresh program, the CalWORKs program, or Unemployment Insurance shall not be eligible to receive a universal basic income under the CalUBI Program. I must be misunderstanding something. If you're unemployed and getting unemployment benefits you don't get your UBI? I…

One of the stated benefits of UBI is that it has the potential to replace other forms of welfare more efficiently. Instead of people getting separate benefits for food, housing, unemployment, etc, they get the one benefit: UBI. This removes the problem of "I don't work hard enough to be poor in America", where the people going through the worst situations have to spend the most time going through forms and bureaucracies.

Instead, you just get UBI. In good times and in bad, so there's no weird income caps and disincentives to work. People don't have to deal with welfare cliffs (https://www.learnliberty.org/blog/the-welfare-cliff-and-why-...) and/or multiple welfare off-ramps simultaneously anymore.

Having UBI and still keeping means-tested welfare removes one of the best benefits of UBI. Most serious UBI proposals do what this one does: Either keep your current benefits or go on a UBI, whatever works best for you.

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