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Single-payer healthcare would save $450B and 68k lives a year: study

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291–300 of 407 posts

Re: Single-payer healthcare would save $450B and 68k lives a year: study

#291
post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is where I think political leaders (Democrat or Republican) could do really well. It's not just making sure people are covered. It's the existential dread of dealing with opaque, unpredictable, and incomprehensible bureaucracy that can make life-and-death decisions or drop financially crippling bills in your lap, even if you have good insurance . The American health care system isn't just bad for the poor. It's…

This is literally the argument that Liz Warren and Bernie have been making, not to mention other Democrats.

Eh. I'm watching it pretty closely, and I don't hear them talking in detail about how difficult it is.

Re: Single-payer healthcare would save $450B and 68k lives a year: study

#292

My neighbor, a colorectal surgeon and very into what he does, has remarked on several occasions that if single payer ever happens, he and most of the other surgeons he knows will likely walk away from the profession very shortly thereafter. There would be no financial or professional motivation to continue practicing.

Yes I am sure they will easily find another highly paying job. I call BS on that statement.

Re: Single-payer healthcare would save $450B and 68k lives a year: study

#293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For the single payer system to work as Bernie has set it up, everyone must be within coverage.

i mean, i'm within coverage of brazil's public health care. i can go to any public hospital right now and get whatever care i need. no extra payment required. (you can read more here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sistema_%C3%9Anico_de_Sa%C3%BA... ) but i also pay for private health care -- because it's... well, better. and fortunately, i can afford it. so i can go to a private hospital and also get whatever procedure…

Pretty sure thus is the way everywhere here in Europe too, you still pay the huge compulsory insurance but no one forbids private insurance or private out of the pocket. In fact many private places also offer things covered by national insurance if they agree to prices set by the gov.

Re: Single-payer healthcare would save $450B and 68k lives a year: study

#294
I don't know why the idea of a "public option" fell out of favor with Democrats. It's a good stop along the way, and doesn't risk completely destroying an industry overnight...and therefore has a much higher chance of passing. Eventually employers would push people onto the public option plan, but it wouldn't be overnight. Bernie's plan, imo has so much room for error, it's not even worth considering without a stop along the way. It's also ironic he wants to ban private insurance completely (I assume that even means supplemental) when pretty much every single country he cites as a model doesn't do that.

Re: Single-payer healthcare would save $450B and 68k lives a year: study

#295
post #19
post #7

In the study, nearly all the computed savings comes from two sources. 1. Decrease in pharmaceutical costs as a result of better bargaining power. 2. Decrease in administrative overhead, calculated by extrapolating the overhead in medicare to the entire US healthcare economy. I don't have an informed opinion on either of these estimates, but my intuition is that #1 seems reasonable while #2 seems unlikely. The justifi…

I worked in the EMR software industry and have certifications that involve hospital & lab billing, among others. I've been on site with healthcare providers, and there are entire buildings full of people whose job it is just to code and scrub claims, and cover disputes/negotiations with private insurance providers. Consumers do not see it because it's typically off-site from the main hospital care facilities, but bel…

Nobody is saying there aren't real administrative savings to be had, but the amount we spend on administrative costs is something close to an empirically observable fact, and you can do the mental exercise of taking any credible number and zeroing it out to see how big an impact it would have on overall health spending. It's not huge.

Which is to say that even in the most optimistic case, where single-payer forces everyone into a perfectly efficient system where nobody has to waste any time on coding or paper-shuffling and everything is perfectly streamlined, we still won't have meaningfully fixed the problem. The amounts we'd save would be a grocery-store-sale discount.

Re: Single-payer healthcare would save $450B and 68k lives a year: study

#296

I'm paying nearly 20k (parents+child) on insurance I don't have time to use (and luckily no serious need) and once my son went to see his pediatrician and our 'private' insurance company (that i'm not going to name) sent us bill of $500, for a check-up. We disputed the charge with the insurance and they agreed to wave the payment next month. Next month comes and guess what? The same letter comes in mail. We disputed…

I live in Canada, and haven't even earned $20k of income in a few years, but I still have excellent cover.

I broke my nose, was seen within 5 minutes and it was straightened (after anaesthetic).

I got hit by a car on my bike, was seen in 5 minutes, no worries.

Needed and x-ray for my lugs to get residency. Took 10 minutes. Free.

My brother broke his leg horribly. Multiple surgeries, a month in hospital, etc. etc.

There are no bills, just taxes - though it's very manageable.

Re: Single-payer healthcare would save $450B and 68k lives a year: study

#297

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For a family of 4, I pay total of about 20K per year as well (employer + employee cost) and even after that, we have a $5000 deductible AND on top, we have to be concerned about in-network/out of network bullshit. So for me, unless $25,000 has been spent, insurance company would not even come in the picture AND I am always scared if I wil get a bill that was out of network. This madness has to end and I don't give a…

Are admin issues guaranteed to be better under a single payer system? Don't people run into all sorts of problems with Medicare - what it will pay vs. what it won't? I give you though that at least it is one set of admin rules than N.. which might be better.

Depends how it's organized, but it could be much better. In Canada, physicians don't need to get approval before they do everything, admin overhead for a physician to bill is a matter of a few minutes a week. Not two full-time staff members just for that.

Re: Single-payer healthcare would save $450B and 68k lives a year: study

#298
post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or the boon from not having one of the highest infant mortality rates in the developed world.

The US also has the highest rate of maternal mortality in the developed world. https://www.propublica.org/article/lost-mothers-maternal-hea...

Yeah that's because a lot of US obgyns don't follow standard checklist protocols. They don't even study it properly. I think the UK has the best one and I know California uses it. Is it a question of treating the birth as a medical event or as something else? I've read about doctors who have given birth at a hospital and died and the death was preventable.

Other possible factors could be a lack of prenatal care or (and this is separate) births outside of a hospital / medical setting.

Re: Single-payer healthcare would save $450B and 68k lives a year: study

#299
post #153

The net savings would be $450B, but the total cost would still be in the 10s of trillions of dollars (Edit: 30-50 over 10 years), bigger than all of our federal spending combined. It's one thing to have as an objective, and another as a plan for getting there. The proposal they cite would make federal healthcare expenditures 69%(!!!) of the GDP (Edit: total federal expenditures). It's simply not realistic to convert…

Ignoring the math error (it's not 69% of GDP), I don't understand this argument. We would save money. Why does it matter if that money is spent publicly vs privately?

Because public is only OK if it's done by Republicans. I know this sounds flippant and partisan, but what's the serious counterpoint? Spend publically on war, on tax cuts (1), on anything favored by conservatives: it's a natural function of government. Spend on anything else: it's usurping taxpayers rights to make their own choices, and reducing efficiency because everybody knows that individual Americans spend their money more wisely than the government.

(1) yes, i know that the riposte: "tax cuts are not expenditure, they are giving money back to tax payers, where it originally came from".

Re: Single-payer healthcare would save $450B and 68k lives a year: study

#300
post #160

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In 2017 retail prescription drug expenditures were $333 billion, accounting for just 10% of total healthcare expenditures.[1] I realize prescription drug prices are insane, the patent regime is broken, and the industry is generally messed up. But at 10%, relying on lower cost prescription drugs to save the day isn't going to help. People feel it's a bigger issue than it is (relative to the overall problem), because i…

> those who want a public option or single-payer--willfully ignore the evidence. What you say is true about the public option, because it incentivizes insurance companies to dump expensive patients onto the public dole, while charging ever increasing premiums for those who either don’t need healthcare or are self-rationing because of things like co-pays or high-deductibles. Obamacare and Medicaid in tandem also don’t…

> What you say is true about the public option, because it incentivizes insurance companies to dump expensive patients onto the public dole, while charging ever increasing premiums for those who either don’t need healthcare or are self-rationing because of things like co-pays or high-deductibles.

Can you explain why this is supposed to be true? The benefit of a "public option" is supposed to be that it would theoretically reduce costs by eliminating insurance company profits. The government insurer would presumably still charge premiums and set them based on actuarial risk, so why would it disproportionately attract high risk patients? It's not as if private insurers would be allowed to cancel your policy after you get sick and dump you on the public insurer.

> It’s not true for single payer systems, who across the world pay less than what we pay in the US. Without special pleading, you have to explain why they’re able to do it and we cannot, otherwise it seems that you’re ignoring the evidence.

The explanation is simple. With single payer the government is a monopsony buyer, so it "negotiating prices" is really just equivalent to price controls. Price controls can certainly lower prices, but they do so by creating shortages.

In medicine the primary cost isn't the unit cost of manufacturing the pill, it's the R&D cost of developing it and performing clinical trials. So the shortage is of medical R&D. Price controls reduce the supply of new medicines -- that is what other countries do to have lower costs. They piggyback on all the money paid by patients in the US and used to develop new medications that are then used all over the world.

So the US pays more for drugs because the rest of the world isn't paying their fair share of the R&D and we're subsidizing them.

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