Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him • Hacker News Board

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#71

Post by filoleg » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

ebaySucks123 wrote: post #28

I had the same exact experience the last time I sold on ebay, in 2017. I sold an $800 item. One day before the claim window closed, the buyer filed a claim saying it had never arrived and claiming they emailed me several times and I never responded. I submitted proof of delivery from UPS and pointed out the simple fact that I had received no messages from the buyer through ebay messaging. Ebay gave them a full refund…

EBay in 2017 was a giant shitshow (and probably still is, but I don't use it anymore). Both their security and support are complete trash, even if you happen to be lucky (like me) and they reply quickly.

I woke up one morning to get an email notification thanking me for purchasing a back bumper, a wing, and a few other parts for a 2012 Hyundai Genesis, which I obviously don't have and neither have I made that purchase. The fraudster even put their real delivery address and name less than 20 miles away from where I lived (which I reverse searched and confirmed that the name was associated with that address). I immediately notified eBay about this, they refunded me the purchase, and asked me to change my password. I did all that, removed the perp's address from the account, but eBay didn't have a legitimate 2FA solution, so I was kinda out of luck here.

Lo and behold, the day after, I wake up to info on my account (name+address) changed again. They couldn't change the email, as I have 2FA on my email account, but they did everything they could aside from that with my eBay account. This repeated at least one more time afterwards. By the end of this saga, I just gave up and closed my eBay account after getting my refund.

I just did some googling, and it seems like eBay STILL doesn't support any form of 2FA aside from SMS-based one (which is exactly how, I suspect, they got into my account in the first place, as I didn't get my email compromised). What a shame, but oh well.

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#72

Post by briandear » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

tus88 wrote: post #35

There is no perfect system that protects buyers and sellers. Change the rules and buyers will be complaining. The reason it is skewed towards buyers is: 1) who in there right mind would buy something online where there is no protection (sellers aren't the same as they have to sell somewhere to make a living). 2) most buyers are honest who just want their item. Profiting from fraud as a buyer is a lot more work as the…

> The general view is sellers need to take fraud into their overall operating expense budget, just like department stored do with shoplifting.

How’s that work when selling a single item?

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#73

Post by giarc » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

csours wrote: post #19

CamelCaseName wrote: post #2

Wrong takeaway. If you're going to sell on Amazon, use FBA. A-z claims cannot be filed on FBA orders. If this is in fact your last sale on Amazon, and you no longer intend to do business with them, email Jeff@Amazon.com as a last resort. Keep in mind, that email should not be used lightly. Be succinct and stoic. Provide proof that you have done everything else to resolve the matter.

Can you use FBA for one-off, used items?

You can, but you pay storage fees. So you have to consider whether your items are going to sell quick enough and warrant the storage fees.

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#74

Post by CobrastanJorji » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:24 PM UTC

canada_dry wrote: post #56

This is such a basic issue that I don't understand why USPS or some other shipper w/ bricks-n-mortar haven't stepped up to offer some sort of package shipping certification. If I was the seller it could work as simply as me bringing the item to a shipper who would take their own photos and weigh the items being packaged up as well as some check that the item is as being described to the recipient. In turn the shipper…

You know, I'm surprised that those mailbox stores don't offer exactly this sort of service. Buyer and seller give a deposit to a postal store, the seller mails product to the store, the buyer inspects the product at the store and decides whether to keep it, and, if so, pays the balance to the store and walks out with the product, and presumably there could be a process for undoing it by returning the product to that same store later if a serious problem has emerged. I guess it's a lot of overhead for buying a video game or something, but it would make sense for $500+ transactions.

Those stores already have notaries, help with shipping, provide mailboxes, and the like. It'd fit pretty well into their wheelhouse.

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#75

Post by briandear » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

bagacrap wrote: post #67

paxys wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are not suing Amazon but rather the person who defrauded you. You have no agreement with him/her.

... you're going to travel to another state for this purpose?

You would need to file in Federal court.

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#76

Post by qwertox » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #54

qwertox wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But wouldn't this become an issue between the seller and the buyer, if Amazon is "just adhering" to what is stipulated in the contract? To me this sounds like Amazon is saying "this is too complicated for us, and we don't see how to deal with it, because we don't know who's telling the truth". Like "If you've got a problem and a case, go to the police; not against us, but against the buyer".

Hmm, my first thought is: contacting a buyer outside of Amazon is against Amazon's TOS. But if the author isn't interested in using Amazon after this incident, Amazon's TOS don't matter much. I'd be interested to hear from someone with a bit more legal knowledge how this might go. It's a good thought for sure.

Why would he contact the buyer outside of Amazon? He would go to the police to point out his issue with the buyer, there's absolutely no need to contact him outside of Amazon.

I'd rather think that Amazon would be forthcoming in assisting any demands an investigation would make, like provide all the information regarding the seller and buyer on this issue to the police.

Sure, it would be nice if Amazon would withhold the money from the buyer until it is proven that the seller has obtained the item, but how does this get proven?

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#77

Post by S_A_P » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

canada_dry wrote: post #56

This is such a basic issue that I don't understand why USPS or some other shipper w/ bricks-n-mortar haven't stepped up to offer some sort of package shipping certification. If I was the seller it could work as simply as me bringing the item to a shipper who would take their own photos and weigh the items being packaged up as well as some check that the item is as being described to the recipient. In turn the shipper…

I sell quite a bit of vintage music gear on Reverb. I initially had some struggles with customers, but they seem to have mostly kept riff raff out. I think the fact that its still slightly a niche site keeps the volume down low enough to keep humans involved. As they were recently purchased by ETSY, Im wondering if this sort of service will start to drop off. Fingers crossed, Im selling a vintage Oberheim right now that I would be sick if a similar circumstance happened...

I stopped using ebay for the reason that most of the sellers just werent trustworthy enough. Amazon keeps trying to blur the line between marketplace and the company, which IMO is a bad move. I think they should run it in a similar manner than reverb, charge higher fees to pay for it(within reason) and actually do something to scammers on both sides of the transaction...

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#78

Post by graylights » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:25 PM UTC

canada_dry wrote: post #56

This is such a basic issue that I don't understand why USPS or some other shipper w/ bricks-n-mortar haven't stepped up to offer some sort of package shipping certification. If I was the seller it could work as simply as me bringing the item to a shipper who would take their own photos and weigh the items being packaged up as well as some check that the item is as being described to the recipient. In turn the shipper…

Would that service be indemnifying the seller from fraud? Or is your assumption that the platform would just make the right call?

Probably it's because the platforms don't want to make services to root out fraud because then they become more responsible for owning it. Outside services can't break in because the platforms aren't going to put trust in them. Those services would have to own the cost of fraud.

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#79

Post by CamelCaseName » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:26 PM UTC

matsemann wrote: post #24

Not the first time Amazon is on blast here for expensive camera gear scams: I Fell Victim to a $1,500 Used Camera Lens Scam on Amazon [0] [0]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14993216

Unfortunately, there are plenty of categories that are absolute breeding grounds for scammers. Camera lenses is definitely one of them.

As a general rule, if the main differentiating feature of the product is hard to verify, or if the product is expensive and easy to resell, stay away.

Re: Amazon let a fraudster keep my Sony A74 IV and refunded him

#80

Post by onemoresoop » Fri, Feb 21, 2020, 10:26 PM UTC

freepor wrote: post #46

Ultimately when you mail something there is no way to prove what you mailed. You can mail a brick and say it was a camera or you can mail a camera and the buyer can say it was a brick. There’s an opportunity here for companies with big real estate footprints like UPS store or Office Depot to offer verified shipping and/or receiving, where you hand them the items and they pack them up and ship them with a certificatio…

Good but not scam-proof, there can be a brick in a camera case in a box. The verified shipping says camera in a box. I don't really mean brick here but the item could be a defective item, a different model or something the verification process could miss.