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Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

greece.greekreporter.com

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Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#161

Post by JackFr »

nutjob2 wrote: post #147
RobertoG wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many commenters here are missing the point. All the measures that were taken against Greece (for its own good, of course), were, theoretically, about improving the competitive of Greece and solve the problem of the public debt. Nothing of that have happened. The public debt problem has not being solved and the Greek economy is a disaster. So who is responsible for those mistakes? They failed in their predictions and…

The problem was that the Greeks had got themselves deeply, calamitously into debt. That the "solution" was awful or ineffective really is not relevant, since it's entirely a consequence of the former. At any time the Greeks could have said no to the proposed solution, but they didn't because they feared an even worse fate. The responsibility for Greece's situation must stay with Greece, unless they forgo the freedom…

> The problem was that the Greeks had got themselves deeply, calamitously into debt.

To be clear then, any 'bailout' of Greece is truly a bailout not of Greece, but their creditors.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#162

Post by rumanator »

RobertoG wrote: post #127
twistedpairs wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's been 5 years, and the Eurogroup destroyed the Greek economy That's not true. Greed which benefited Greeks at the time destroyed the Greek economy.

Many commenters here are missing the point. All the measures that were taken against Greece (for its own good, of course), were, theoretically, about improving the competitive of Greece and solve the problem of the public debt. Nothing of that have happened. The public debt problem has not being solved and the Greek economy is a disaster. So who is responsible for those mistakes? They failed in their predictions and…

> Many commenters here are missing the point. All the measures that were taken against Greece

Your assertion is absurd. No measure was ever taken to "keep the Greek man down". Greek governments spent years running up a monstrous debt and cooking their books to try to falsify the actual state of the country's economy and the state's finances, going to the extent of hiring private consultancy firms to help them commit accounting fraud, and once that time bombs blew in their faces there was no other alternative than to pick up the pieces and sort out the mess. The ECB/IMF/EC gang's role was to simply provide emergency financing to buy Greek government's some time to actually sort their state's mess. It might be politically convenient to fabricate an evil foreign boogieman to distract people from the true causes but the facts speak for themselves, and there is no way around it.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#163

Post by mrtksn »

317070 wrote: post #159
mrtksn wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There are numerous studies about the positive effects of being rich and have the easy life, including studies showing that the richer you are the lesser child mortality you get. You can argue that if that money was not given in first place is just as bad as asking it back. I am sure the poorer EU countries would also lower their mortality rates if they were given the free check. What's special about Greece, why Roman…

Your argument is that those children in Greece deserved to die because children in Romania are dying too? I am not convinced by that argument. What is going on here is that debt in the current financial system is at conflict with current moral standards. Debt is being transferred from parents to children (mostly in the form of state debt), while defaults are being pushed almost exclusively on the the debtor from the…

No they don’t deserve to die but let’s have a system where children all over the world are taken care of, not only those whose parents can game the creditors.

also “Think of the children” argument should stop being abused.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#164

Post by rumanator »

CarelessExpert wrote: post #64
frandroid wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's been 5 years, and the Eurogroup destroyed the Greek economy. I don't think it's unfair to now reveal the contents of these discussions. It's high time to see if it was corruption, or compromise, which happened.

And that makes a lot of sense. The idea that closed door deliberations must be made public after some moratorium period strikes me as a good compromise, as in the moment it allows politicians to have those private discussions that might allow compromise to occur, while not totally sacrificing transparency in the long-term. And this isn't without precedent. The US declassification system essentially works this way (th…

> The idea that closed door deliberations must be made public after some moratorium period strikes me as a good compromise

The eurogroup president is already tasked with the responsibility of address the press and report on the group's deliberation.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#165

Post by odshoifsdhfs »

olivierduval wrote: post #56
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When these discussions impact so many people (various countries affected) I don't believe they should be kept secret. Lets (just for example, I am not saying it happened), during that meeting, the German/French Finance minister said: 'I don't care about the Greek people, we can't let German/French banks fall, so do what you must if you ever want the ECB to lend you money'. Wouldn't the greek people deserve to know an…

And even if it was the case... Maybe the logical reasoning is something like: EU need some worldclass banks to be independant, so we can't let a single country trash everything for all other EU countries. I can understand that Greek people would be angry to be "sacrified"... and that's why that kind of meeting is secret! Because to govern is not only to be elected but sometimes to have to take bad choices, when only…

I am not even againts french/german politicians to do that, they represent their population, but Greek people have the right to know they are being sacrificed for the 'greater good'. And what their representatives did, and to vote accordingly. And if it is a Grexit, so be it, but don't hide things from the population because they are unpopular, specially when they mess with their lives so much.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#166

Post by tsimionescu »

olivierduval wrote: post #56
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When these discussions impact so many people (various countries affected) I don't believe they should be kept secret. Lets (just for example, I am not saying it happened), during that meeting, the German/French Finance minister said: 'I don't care about the Greek people, we can't let German/French banks fall, so do what you must if you ever want the ECB to lend you money'. Wouldn't the greek people deserve to know an…

And even if it was the case... Maybe the logical reasoning is something like: EU need some worldclass banks to be independant, so we can't let a single country trash everything for all other EU countries. I can understand that Greek people would be angry to be "sacrified"... and that's why that kind of meeting is secret! Because to govern is not only to be elected but sometimes to have to take bad choices, when only…

If that were the case, the politician would have to be able to explain that to the electorate and convince them of it. If they can't, then that decision should not be taken.

That's what democracy should mean - we don't elect representatives so that they can take decisions we don't want but that they think are good for us. We elect representatives because direct democracy doesn't scale.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#167

Post by odshoifsdhfs »

yellowstuff wrote: post #57
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When these discussions impact so many people (various countries affected) I don't believe they should be kept secret. Lets (just for example, I am not saying it happened), during that meeting, the German/French Finance minister said: 'I don't care about the Greek people, we can't let German/French banks fall, so do what you must if you ever want the ECB to lend you money'. Wouldn't the greek people deserve to know an…

I understand your point and the importance of the issues you're raising, but ultimately I still think it's important for leaders to be able to have confidential discussions. While transparency is important, I think that if people know that their meetings will be public then the real decisions will be made in private, and the meetings will just be an opportunity for political messaging. You don't get the same outcome…

See, but you even say, the best possible outcome would be full transparency, but you know that wouldn't happen. And that is the problem. Ohhh Germany/France/Portugal/Greece or Lithuania (doesn't matter) doesn't want their voters to know what they are fighting for, so they will never be open about it. How is that democracy? How is it possible to vote for any party anywhere when they just tell the average joe 'yes, your pension will be cut 15%, and your kids pay more in taxes, but trust me, I did the best I could, you should be thankful'. Is this democracy?????

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#168

Post by tsimionescu »

nutjob2 wrote: post #149
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When these discussions impact so many people (various countries affected) I don't believe they should be kept secret. Lets (just for example, I am not saying it happened), during that meeting, the German/French Finance minister said: 'I don't care about the Greek people, we can't let German/French banks fall, so do what you must if you ever want the ECB to lend you money'. Wouldn't the greek people deserve to know an…

If you choose to make discussion public, at least in a timely fashion, then you will lower the effectiveness of these discussions and the quality of the decisions. Quite often, especially with difficult issues, people have to take risks or make painful compromises or at least suggest them, even if the final result is nothing like them. Sometime people bluff, lie and distort in order to improve their position. There i…

Painful compromise should be taken only with the assent of those who will feel the pain. Otherwise, it is sadism or carelessness, not painful compromise.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#169

Post by odshoifsdhfs »

xkemp wrote: post #109
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

People in this thread seem to mostly not even consider the value that the ability to (sometimes) speak privately has. As an analogy: would you want your spouse (and vice versa) to hear recording of every conversation you have, including those with close friends/therapists/rabbis etc? It's not completely absurd to say yes to that question. But it's notable that such a relationship would be a departure from established…

First, we can't really compare that to elected officials.

But even so, yeah, I would like to know if my spouse is talking with her friends/therapists/whatever about stealing all my money and screwing my best friend while they hire an hitman to off me. Exaggeration? Yes, but Greece got royally fucked with the Troika 'medicine', so yes, the people should know what led them to that place, and who fought for and against them.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#170

Post by rumanator »

black_puppydog wrote: post #75
smallnamespace wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, organizations that are able to keep their internal deliberations private have a strong advantage over ones who must ‘think’ openly. Imagine negotiating with an employer, except your inner monologue is always spoken aloud. One unintended (?) consequence of extreme transparency for governments, is that it makes government ineffective and easily subverted or outmaneuvered by opaque organizations, like…

Except that in the case of politics, the "out group" who that information is kept from are the people being governed. And do you want politics to have a "strong advantage" over it's citizens? By the way, this goes hand in hand with the encroachment on ordinary citizens' rights (often with exceptions being carved out specifically for parliamentarians).

> Except that in the case of politics, the "out group" who that information is kept from are the people being governed. And do you want politics to have a "strong advantage" over it's citizens?

Obviously you want your elected representatives to do what's best, not what gets you trending in the polls. In this particular case we should expect the EU to step up and help out member-states in need in spite of the political abuse and exploitation by populist parties of problems such as the sovereign debt crisis.

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