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Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

greece.greekreporter.com

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Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#81

Post by thanatropism »

leto_ii wrote: post #72
smallnamespace wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

On the other hand, organizations that are able to keep their internal deliberations private have a strong advantage over ones who must ‘think’ openly. Imagine negotiating with an employer, except your inner monologue is always spoken aloud. One unintended (?) consequence of extreme transparency for governments, is that it makes government ineffective and easily subverted or outmaneuvered by opaque organizations, like…

> On the other hand, organizations that are able to keep their internal deliberations private have a strong advantage over ones who must ‘think’ openly. I agree, but an advantage over whom exactly? In this case it's simply an advantage of the ruling political and economic elite over European citizens (Greeks especially). There are few instances when things really should be kept secret e.g. during wars, but this was n…

But this is a story of European government bodies versus Greek government bodies. You identify SYRIZA with The People too easily.

What, Varoufakis is a world-renown professor of game theory. You don’t think he has an agenda? Is it impossible that this agenda clashes against the Good of Greek People?

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#82

Post by twistedpairs »

frandroid wrote: post #43
CarelessExpert wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I honestly don't think it's that simple. While decisions should always be public, in order to come to reasonable compromises on issues, it can be valuable for leaders to be able to have closed-door conversations outside of the spotlight, where they don't have to engage in political grandstanding; after all, it's that kind of comp…

It's been 5 years, and the Eurogroup destroyed the Greek economy. I don't think it's unfair to now reveal the contents of these discussions. It's high time to see if it was corruption, or compromise, which happened.

> It's been 5 years, and the Eurogroup destroyed the Greek economy

That's not true. Greed which benefited Greeks at the time destroyed the Greek economy.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#83

Post by mrtksn »

aazaa wrote: post #67

This article does a poor job of explaining what could be controversial about the 2015 Eurogroup Meeting. Who cares? This just sounds like Euro-Politico Soap Opera. After some digging, I found this: > The Eurogroup on the 11 July 2015 discussed the request by the Greek authorities for financial assistance from the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) and their new proposals for a reform agenda. https://www.europeansourc…

As far as I remember, Varoufakis was personally offended that the eurocrats did not take him seriously and did not engage in a discussion of his ideas. He wrote about it several times, he sounded extremely disappointed that you can't have an academic discussion on that table.

I had a really hard time to sympathise with him as I got the impression that he didn't pay attention to the reality of the situation and kept complaining that it's not like the way he likes it.

He seems like a nice guy to drink with but not a person you would like to do business. My guess is that the recordings will prove how cool and smart is he and it wasn't his fault.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#84

Post by tsimionescu »

koolba wrote: post #46
tsimionescu wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can the public take informed decisions if the reasoned debate is always assumed to be held in secret? OK, national security and foreign negotiation is a special topic where secrecy can be warranted. But if the government of a country or union of countries is considering, say, pay cuts, why on earth would the population not be entitled to hearing all sides of the argument?

> But if the government of a country or union of countries is considering, say, pay cuts, why on earth would the population not be entitled to hearing all sides of the argument? Deliberations are not arguments. Arguments are delivered after deliberation is complete. If you consider a group of advisors acting as an extension of the chief executive, it’s no different than asking for the chief executives private thought…

Per your argument, parliament discussions should also be secret, because otherwise it would be like asking for the private thoughts of the head of parliament.

But being more serious, deliberation is normally done between friendly parties before a negotiation, and perhaps it is usually fair to keep it private, especially before the actual negotiation has taken place.

But the actual negotiation is an excersie in arguments and offers and counter offers, it is no longer a private affair. If the negotiation is over, you can no longer trust the parties to accurately tell a story of the real arguments that took place, since the arguments they tell everyone may well have been a result of the negotiation.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#85

Post by throwawayhhakdl »

tasubotadas wrote: post #4

That's a really shitty move. >a USB of the conversations he had secretly recorded while attending a Eurogroup discussion in Brussels People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. Judging people on what they said there by a public standard (it's impossible that this will not happen) is extremely unfair. Especially since Varoufakis knew that he will be recorded, he has probably chosen…

The fact that only he knew is really the crucial point here. That gives him incredible opportunity to sway the conversation. He also has the ability to cherry-pick which recordings to choose.

If you want open talks, they need to be done so with everyone on board.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#86

Post by pavlov »

petermcneeley wrote: post #76

This is about "elections cannot be allowed to change economic policy" It reflects the anti democratic perspective of the Eurogroup and is one of the most fundamental political issues of our times. https://www.google.com/amp/s/markcarrigan.net/2017/05/08/ele...

Greece voluntarily joined a larger currency zone and reaped the benefits for a decade.

Should state elections in Mississippi drive US Fed policy?

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#87

Post by sgift »

tasubotadas wrote: post #16
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

Well, I kinda do not like Varoufakis, because he came off as an entitled know-it-all prick (a not so rare trait in academia). He made lots of bold claims but in the end, nothing really got accomplished. EDIT: Regarding the fact that the public deserves to know, I disagree. The public can act completely irrationally against its own interests under FUD (I guess we have some recent examples from the UK and the US), and…

> Regarding the fact that the public deserves to know, I disagree. The public can act completely irrationally against its own interests under FUD (I guess we have some recent examples from the UK and the US), and in a lot of cases, they are better off not knowing

Can you please clarify if I misunderstood you: You argue that people shouldn't know the truth, because when someone lies to them they act against their own interests?

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#88

Post by hardlianotion »

tasubotadas wrote: post #37
mempko wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what's a shitty move? What the euogroup did to greece and other countries.

I grew up in a country that joined the EU and boomed afterwards. We had the same crisis and probably even worse austerity measures than Greece after the 2008 crisis and some politicians are still in a tough spot until this day. In all aspects, Greece was in much better shape before the 2008 crisis than Lithuania. Now Lithuania has a higher GDP per capita than Greece. How did that happen? But never once, anyone in pub…

Varoufakis, as far as I remember, was not asking for debt forgiveness.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#89

Post by matteuan »

petermcneeley wrote: post #76

This is about "elections cannot be allowed to change economic policy" It reflects the anti democratic perspective of the Eurogroup and is one of the most fundamental political issues of our times. https://www.google.com/amp/s/markcarrigan.net/2017/05/08/ele...

Schäuble was only 1/17 of the Eurogroup.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#90

Post by fifnir »

tsimionescu wrote: post #77
mrtksn wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you argue that it is O.K. to game the bank and live a lavish life destroying your own way of living and if the bank catches up and wants you to take measures so you can pay back, the right thing to do would be to jail the people who were gamed or conspired with the people who gamed the bank and simply continue the lavish life and let the people who dod not manage to game the bank(some richer and some poorer than y…

No. The point you are missing is that it is also not ok for the lender to lend everyone a billion dollars, wait for people to default, and then go ask the government to give them a billion dollars back because otherwise they will go bankrupt. If the supply of money has essentially been exhausted, then both borrowers and lenders have been doing something wrong, and it should be BOTH that suffer, so that both are incen…

> What happened in Greece instead was that only the borrowers suffered, the lenders got all their money back.

Even worse, it'll be the borrower's children who will suffer the consequences.

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