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Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

greece.greekreporter.com

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Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#61

Post by mrtksn »

lucianoq wrote: post #40

To the people who think Greece deserved that: lender is responsible for checking how much the borrower can take. My bank reasonably doesn't give me a billion. Default likelihood exists because there is an interest that prices it. When default happens, shame on the borrower and shame on the lender for having been a bad checker or just shame on no one if that default was one of the "expected" and covered by all the deb…

So you argue that it is O.K. to game the bank and live a lavish life destroying your own way of living and if the bank catches up and wants you to take measures so you can pay back, the right thing to do would be to jail the people who were gamed or conspired with the people who gamed the bank and simply continue the lavish life and let the people who dod not manage to game the bank(some richer and some poorer than you) keep writing checks to you so you can sustain the lifestyle you achieved by gaming the bank?

Do I get this correct?

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#62

Post by smallnamespace »

lucianoq wrote: post #58
tasubotadas wrote: post #4

That's a really shitty move. >a USB of the conversations he had secretly recorded while attending a Eurogroup discussion in Brussels People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. Judging people on what they said there by a public standard (it's impossible that this will not happen) is extremely unfair. Especially since Varoufakis knew that he will be recorded, he has probably chosen…

> People in private converse completely differently (more freely) than in public. They are deciding about life and death of people of a country (or many). They're not discussing about what's your favourite food and which sex position you like the most. Those conversation MUST be open and public, so people can judge the work of their delegates and decide to vote them again or not. If you don't want to be heard, don't…

On the other hand, organizations that are able to keep their internal deliberations private have a strong advantage over ones who must ‘think’ openly.

Imagine negotiating with an employer, except your inner monologue is always spoken aloud.

One unintended (?) consequence of extreme transparency for governments, is that it makes government ineffective and easily subverted or outmaneuvered by opaque organizations, like corporations and less liberal state actors.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#63

Post by tasubotadas »

leto_ii wrote: post #53
tasubotadas wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I grew up in a country that joined the EU and boomed afterwards. We had the same crisis and probably even worse austerity measures than Greece after the 2008 crisis and some politicians are still in a tough spot until this day. In all aspects, Greece was in much better shape before the 2008 crisis than Lithuania. Now Lithuania has a higher GDP per capita than Greece. How did that happen? But never once, anyone in pub…

> Greece was in much better shape before the 2008 crisis than Lithuania. Now Lithuania has a higher GDP per capita than Greece Shouldn't this actually make you wonder whether the Greek austerity was a good idea? > It really makes a difference, when people own up to their future. Why do you think it makes sense to hold millions accountable directly for the corrupt dealings of a few members of a country's elite (and of…

>Why do you think it makes sense to hold millions accountable directly for the corrupt dealings of a few members of a country's elite (and of a few foreign bankers, politicians etc.)?

That's how democracy works. If you are not happy with your current government, elect the one you are happy with.

Over time, I've found that the elected government really does represent the general population.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#64

Post by CarelessExpert »

frandroid wrote: post #43
CarelessExpert wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I honestly don't think it's that simple. While decisions should always be public, in order to come to reasonable compromises on issues, it can be valuable for leaders to be able to have closed-door conversations outside of the spotlight, where they don't have to engage in political grandstanding; after all, it's that kind of comp…

It's been 5 years, and the Eurogroup destroyed the Greek economy. I don't think it's unfair to now reveal the contents of these discussions. It's high time to see if it was corruption, or compromise, which happened.

And that makes a lot of sense.

The idea that closed door deliberations must be made public after some moratorium period strikes me as a good compromise, as in the moment it allows politicians to have those private discussions that might allow compromise to occur, while not totally sacrificing transparency in the long-term.

And this isn't without precedent. The US declassification system essentially works this way (though it functions over the course of decades, which is probably too long).

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#65

Post by leto_ii »

tasubotadas wrote: post #52
lucianoq wrote: post #29

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Retirement age in Greece is today and was in 2011 higher than in Germany. Using some anecdotes and guess for aggregate data is bad induction. "privatize" means that today all the Greek airports are owned by German companies. Is it legit to suppose there was a slight conflict of interest between the "doctor" and the "patient"? I mean, would you trust your doctor if he gains on your death?

Really? "Like many EU countries, the general retirement age in Greece is 65, although the actual average is about 61. However, the deeply fragmented system also provides for early retirement – as early as 55 for men and 50 for women – in many professions classified as unhealthy." 55 and 50! https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-to-ca...

Conveniently, Greece is just below Germany in the table, making for easy comparison: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retirement_age#Retirement_age_...

Regarding early retirement, I'm sure this is the case in many "industrious" countries too. You probably don't want 65 year olds running around in combat boots with a machine gun and 20kg of supplies on their back.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#66

Post by zajio1am »

lucianoq wrote: post #40

To the people who think Greece deserved that: lender is responsible for checking how much the borrower can take. My bank reasonably doesn't give me a billion. Default likelihood exists because there is an interest that prices it. When default happens, shame on the borrower and shame on the lender for having been a bad checker or just shame on no one if that default was one of the "expected" and covered by all the deb…

If (corporate) borrower defaults on its obligations, it often leads to bankrupcy, forced asset sale and liquidation / dissolution.

Considering that laws probably does not assume possibility of bankrupcy or other way of dealing with insolvency for sovereign, that does not mean defaulted debt disappears. It may or may not be reclaimable in local courts (based on local laws), but it likely could be reclaimable in foreign courts. That would cause long-term legal clusterfuck for Greece and that would likely be much worse than the current state.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#67

Post by aazaa »

This article does a poor job of explaining what could be controversial about the 2015 Eurogroup Meeting. Who cares? This just sounds like Euro-Politico Soap Opera.

After some digging, I found this:

> The Eurogroup on the 11 July 2015 discussed the request by the Greek authorities for financial assistance from the European Stability Mechanism (ESM) and their new proposals for a reform agenda.

https://www.europeansources.info/record/extraordinary-eurogr...

So presumably, the recordings provide evidence of some kind of back-door deal between the EU and Greece as terms for refinancing its debt.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#68

Post by leto_ii »

tasubotadas wrote: post #63
leto_ii wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Greece was in much better shape before the 2008 crisis than Lithuania. Now Lithuania has a higher GDP per capita than Greece Shouldn't this actually make you wonder whether the Greek austerity was a good idea? > It really makes a difference, when people own up to their future. Why do you think it makes sense to hold millions accountable directly for the corrupt dealings of a few members of a country's elite (and of…

>Why do you think it makes sense to hold millions accountable directly for the corrupt dealings of a few members of a country's elite (and of a few foreign bankers, politicians etc.)? That's how democracy works. If you are not happy with your current government, elect the one you are happy with. Over time, I've found that the elected government really does represent the general population.

In representative democracies people don't really have much control over the day to day operations of the government.

They are also often deliberately kept in the dark about the decisions being made. Even if they had the necessary information available, it would be almost impossible to keep up with everything since people have other more important things to do to e.g. work.

> Over time, I've found that the elected government really does represent the general population.

I don't know where this happens, but if/when it does it's more of a fortunate accident than the default outcome.

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#69

Post by fifnir »

thefounder wrote: post #51
lucianoq wrote: post #40

To the people who think Greece deserved that: lender is responsible for checking how much the borrower can take. My bank reasonably doesn't give me a billion. Default likelihood exists because there is an interest that prices it. When default happens, shame on the borrower and shame on the lender for having been a bad checker or just shame on no one if that default was one of the "expected" and covered by all the deb…

The lender is responsible to get its money back and pay its shareholders and that's it. Now the government is responsible to protect its people. It looks like the Greek gov(which represents the Greek people) was not very responsible when it took the loans and arguably neither when it nearly got bankrupted.

I want you to explain to me in what situation such a lender could ever have a loss.

I want you to explain to me why it's reasonable that the lender makes profits when things go right, but the public has to take the loss when things go wrong.

Isn't in the nature of a free market that lending is an inherently risky business ?

Re: Varoufakis to Publish Notorious Eurogroup Recordings from 2015 Meetings

#70

Post by Middleclass »

CarelessExpert wrote: post #19
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. A lot of citizens of a few countries had their lives almost destroyed by the decisions of these politicians, so is only fair they know what was discussed, who defended them, etc. Let us not forget the pressure the ECB (and other european institutions) put on some countries that have come to light after the fact. (Like only allowing…

> While what you say is true, the contents of these meetings should be public knowledge. I honestly don't think it's that simple. While decisions should always be public, in order to come to reasonable compromises on issues, it can be valuable for leaders to be able to have closed-door conversations outside of the spotlight, where they don't have to engage in political grandstanding; after all, it's that kind of comp…

Is there any difference between "secret compromises" and corruption if the compromises are against citizens' interests and will?

A black box might work IF it can be ensured that all data considered will be bundled with the decision. But how can such a thing ever be ensured?

We'll soon have source-included but secret-compiler software as a technical possibility, by means of zero-knowledge computational proofs.

It seems a bit much to ask politics to follow that state-of-the-art, which means that closed-doors talks* should be outlawed if the EU wants to have leg to stand on v. rising anti-EU sentiments.

*. indefinitely-closed-doors talks. A mandatory post-mortem including release of the talks themselves after a set period of time would go a long way.

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