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Think you want to die at home? You might want to think twice about that

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Re: Think you want to die at home? You might want to think twice about that

#61

Post by HenryBemis »

Just a thought, but here it is.. humans were living for far less years. We used to die at 20-30-40, 50 at best for thousands of years. Then hygiene, healthcare, comforts kicked in and we ended up living up to 100+.

I think that "in the past" our species didn't have to worry about "senility" (and what comes with it) because people were dying while their brains were still at full capacity/capability and it was only the body that was "failing".

The jump from the lifespan of 50 to 90 to just a few decades must have made a huge difference in the appearance of this "new problem" of having 3-4 generations being alive at the same time.

I remember a Great-grandparent was a very rare thing. Now with people living up to 100 and people having kids at an earlier age, we get to see it far more, and this will most likely continue.

Re: Think you want to die at home? You might want to think twice about that

#62

Post by mam2 »

Polylactic_acid wrote: post #26
warent wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Assisted suicide is illegal throughout most of the USA so it's not even an option. Also, many people just aren't in a rush to die. Whatever your beliefs, one thing for certain is that it's a permanent and irreversible transition of some kind. It's unsettling, at least on primal levels.

Artificially keeping someone alive as a suffering vegetable is also unsettling.

yes but the line is not assisted suicide or not. it's "unnecessary care or not", at least in france. I don't know how it is in the us considering the cost such care would entail..

Re: Think you want to die at home? You might want to think twice about that

#63

Post by AstralStorm »

prepend wrote: post #31
gHosts wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think there is a euthanasia bill passed or even on the table in the entire planet where "we start killing people because you" is acceptable. That's just plain FUD. They are all, "The patient, being of sound mind, jumps through a large bunch of legal hurdles to be permitted to exit peacefully and painlessly." > "Most people with something terribly wrong are holding out hope" We're talking about people inches f…

There aren’t laws with that explicit purpose, but it does seem to occur. I don’t actively seek out and follow this topic, but I remember a few news stories where I shook my head: - https://www.bbc.com/news/stories-45117163 29 chooses physician assisted suicide because she was terminally mentally ill - https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/31/world/europe/doctors-belg... a case where doctors were acquitted, but charged by a…

Technically attempting treatment should be part of that checklist.

Just like palliative treatments, this is ultimate last resort of exclusion.

Presuming there is any reason it's depression, and one of the risks of depression treatments is increase in risk of suicide. Could lead to the same end, or even kill the patient anyway with other side effects. And when do you decide "garbage" therapies like counseling or socialization fail?

In the case above, the problem is that treatment requires the person to be committed, and person committed is declared not of sound mind. That's the catch-22 of euthanasia laws. You would have to change the part "of sound mind".

And then the doctors could be sued anyway, because some alleged treatment was missed. Either you trust the doctors made a diagnosis correctly or not.

Re: Think you want to die at home? You might want to think twice about that

#64

Post by AstralStorm »

Really the problem is that the care facilities are few and far removed, the other being that old people really prefer the familiar.

Alternatively that live in professional care is really expensive, and for good reason that it takes a big toll on people performing it in addition to special skills

Re: Think you want to die at home? You might want to think twice about that

#65

Post by prepend »

chx wrote: post #52
prepend wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

First, I really hope you reconsider as there are so many people you can help in the world. But I’m very curious your motivation to pay off your mortgage before death. What is driving that? I always thought mortgage payment was a stress as it is to me. But if I were to die then I wouldn’t need to care about mortgage. If anything, I would pay less mortgage and spend more liberally in my final 8 years. Perhaps 4 or even…

I want to leave a problem free inheritance to my nephew who is everything to me in this world.

That’s pretty admirable and I understand now how an intact, debt-free house is a great gift.

It’s probably not possible to have a direct conversation with your nephew for whether he would prefer a house or more than 8 years with his uncle, but I think if you explore this concept you might be able to determine his preference and that could lead to extending your plan by a few years.

One of the things I really found helpful from family members, and I have an uncle like this, is the life advice I’ve received. I didn’t get financial help, but being able to run through scenarios and ask about business and life plans has been super helpful. Another person in my life died and left letters to be opened in case of certain events. Those letters are helpful, but very different from being able to learn from and interact.

Re: Think you want to die at home? You might want to think twice about that

#66

Post by JshWright »

prepend wrote: post #36
JshWright wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How can someone relating their personal experience be "biased"? Anecdotally (in my experience as a paramedic), I agree that many people significantly underestimate how hard it is to care for someone who is dying.

> How can someone relating their personal experience be "biased"? Aside from all stories we tell being biased there are many ways a story I tell about my experience can be especially biased. Exaggeration, omission, conflation, and then there’s outright deceit. There’s also the possibility that what I believe is real is not [0]. I don’t like assuming the worst or accusing people, but I certainly don’t think that all p…

> Exaggeration, omission, conflation, and then there’s outright deceit.

That's not bias, that's lying.

For what it's worth, the author's experience certainly matches my own (working as a paramedic). There are a lot of people out there who have significantly underestimated how hard it is to care for a loved one who is slowly dying.

Re: Think you want to die at home? You might want to think twice about that

#67

Post by kazinator »

gwright wrote: post #60
kazinator wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It does (also) end up being about the right to die, because some people need assistance in dying, and those who help them are criminalized. In a nutshell, a right whose realization you cannot delegate to another person is not a bona fide right. Of course, delegating suicide to someone results in homicide, so everything you write is spot on. But the effect is only those who do not need help have the right to die; thos…

I'm not sure I agree with what you are asserting. There is the idea of "negative rights". These are rights that don't require the actions of a third party in order to be satisfied. For example, the right to not be assaulted only requires that other people not assault you. And the right to ownership of private property only requires that other people not take your property. On the other hand a "positive right" can not…

> Can you assert your right and demand that someone be forced to assist you?

I would say, the proper interpretation of rights such as "right to education" or "right to die" is that nobody may stand in your way of exercising them, not that others must be coerced into provisioning roles.

(The coercive aspect is an interpretation taken by collectivist societies with regard to certain expensive needs.)

Re: Think you want to die at home? You might want to think twice about that

#68

Post by gwright »

kazinator wrote: post #67
gwright wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure I agree with what you are asserting. There is the idea of "negative rights". These are rights that don't require the actions of a third party in order to be satisfied. For example, the right to not be assaulted only requires that other people not assault you. And the right to ownership of private property only requires that other people not take your property. On the other hand a "positive right" can not…

> Can you assert your right and demand that someone be forced to assist you? I would say, the proper interpretation of rights such as "right to education" or "right to die" is that nobody may stand in your way of exercising them, not that others must be coerced into provisioning roles. (The coercive aspect is an interpretation taken by collectivist societies with regard to certain expensive needs.)

Ok, but then you don't need any special "right to education". You just need all usual individual freedoms (property, freedom of association, freedom of speech, freedom of movement, etc.)

We could just call that "liberty". There is no need to argue about some nearly-infinite list of "rights to X" when that is all covered by the simple idea of being left alone. But the moment you say that you in order to excercise your "right to X" someone is obligated to provide something to you, then you are back into the coercion game again.

Re: Think you want to die at home? You might want to think twice about that

#69

Post by downerending »

gwright wrote: post #47
DoreenMichele wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pro right to die, but it's complicated. If we start killing people "because you are a burden to your family," that's a rather ugly slippery slope that flies in the face of most moral and legal precedents that say "Love and legal obligation mean staying to the bitter end and never faltering in your duty." Most people with something terribly wrong are holding out hope for some new breakthrough -- some new drug or t…

> I'm pro right to die, but it's complicated. > I think I should have the right to say "Nope. I'm done with this crap." This is a pretty standard way of staking out a position on this topic but I think it is quite misleading. Laws regarding euthanasia have very little if anything to do with limiting the actions of someone who wants to die or protecting their "rights". After all they can't be prosecuted after they hav…

Disagree. Yes, anyone can commit suicide. But doing so without medical assistance usually involves leaving a huge, traumatic mess for our fellow humans to deal with. For the good of all concerned, including the about-to-be deceased, reasonable self-euthanasia should be supported.

(An additional benefit is that it would help identify people who are suicidally depressed for not-reasonable reasons, and get them help, or at least someone to talk to.)

Re: Think you want to die at home? You might want to think twice about that

#70

Post by downerending »

thanatropism wrote: post #22
DoreenMichele wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pro right to die, but it's complicated. If we start killing people "because you are a burden to your family," that's a rather ugly slippery slope that flies in the face of most moral and legal precedents that say "Love and legal obligation mean staying to the bitter end and never faltering in your duty." Most people with something terribly wrong are holding out hope for some new breakthrough -- some new drug or t…

Maybe the euthanasia is better left un-codified. It's not difficult to obtain the means for relatively comfortable suicide -- and people do it left and right, mostly for reasons of mental illness -- so it's not like people are being oppressed by not having such a "right".

It's not so much that it's difficult as that it requires a certain amount of sustained, intelligent thought, and some people probably can't really reason it out. Methods that absolutely cannot fail and that aren't too awful for the subject and survivors aren't initially obvious. Thus the large number of failed and awful suicides.

(Source: Have been suicidal in the past and cracked this nut.)

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