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Morgan Stanley to Buy E-Trade for $13B

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Re: Morgan Stanley to Buy E-Trade for $13B

#101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are right in that Chase, BofA, Citi and the like have a pretty large head start, but this is just the first innings. I can't even imagine the coming disruptions and ideas in the space. Partnering with Apple -- or Google, which I am sure people have and will -- seems like the right way to get into the space since the mobile phone is the key platform at the moment.

I haven't used apple pay since touch-less cards came out. It'll be interesting to see how they pivot to something beyond pure convenience. I highly doubt the target consumer cares about security. It'll also be interesting to see how far tech companies are willing to partner given increased regulation and scrutiny when finance is involved

What? Touch-less cards were available long before Apple Pay

Re: Morgan Stanley to Buy E-Trade for $13B

#102
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

this is a good explanation too, and from a local. https://www.kalzumeus.com/2019/6/26/how-brokerages-make-mone... The writing was on the wall for E-Trade. Banking is in an ebb of consolidation. E-Trade and TD Ameritrade had to sell once Interactive Brokers / Schwab started that game of dropping commission. They didnt add enough other value besides stock trading. They are a component to a larger banking suite. I have…

>I am somewhat surprised nobody offers an abstracted savings account, that handles 401k, IRA, HSA, paying rent and bills, and access to credit. I think it'd be complicated to regulate from a risk perspective. Checking and savings accounts get insured by the FDIC, how do you insure a large pile of money invested practically everywhere in varying risky scenarios? You'd need to at least create a boundary between "FDIC-i…

I think there's a related product out there.

Think of the traditional baby boomer era story-- "Dad brings home the paycheque, Mom does the budget."

Give me Mom as a service. Don't let me touch my full salary, just what's left after a responsible adult has done with it.

Let me plug in every account I have, and set up rules like

* Pay the rent on the first cheque of the month and the electric company on the second

* Pay credit cards in full up to a total of $1200/month; if beyond that pay towards the highest rates first while still covering minimum balances

* If there's a break in of cash flow, draw down from savings to $500 to retain the current pay rates, then drop payments on all accounts to minimum.

* Leave $150 per week from cash flow where I can withdraw it for petty cash.

* Anything unspoken for is sent to an automatic purchase of (broad index fund|treasury debt|Pokemon cards) on a weekly basis

After a few years of using the account with $150 per week on it, you check the statement and see that the money that Mom-as-a-service has withheld from you is enough to buy the entirety of Alberta.

Re: Morgan Stanley to Buy E-Trade for $13B

#103
post #81

Earlier quoted context omitted.

if you counted Assets under Management, Blackrock would have a valuation of 7 trillion. That clearly isnt the case. They dont actually own the assets

I know that wouldn't be a normal inclusion for 'assets'; I was trying to understand the massive discount.

Company valuation only depends on future cash flows. If an asset is able to produce future cash flows, or can be sold to create cash flows, then this can be accounted for in valuation. In this article their mention of assets is actually assets under management (Link at end of comment). Assets under management still only factor in valuation based on their ability to generate future cash flows, as E-Trade have no claim to those assets. These cash flows have been taken into account, and then used to evaluate a $13 billion price tag. Elsewhere in the thread you can see how money is made from assets under management.

(https://www.brokerage-review.com/investing-firm/assets-under...)

Re: Morgan Stanley to Buy E-Trade for $13B

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No it isn't. I've worked at an HFT, this is not why they buy the order flow. Retail order flow is worth buying because it's what's called "non-toxic". That means the retail traders generally don't know which way the market is going, ie they are either wrong or too small to make the market move against the market maker. Contrast that to trading against a hedge fund which might have a better clue and is potentially lar…

I agree that HFT don't buy order flow in order to make trades execute better for retail investors. They buy order flow in order to make money. The retail order flow is, as you say, non-toxic. That is, HFT can reasonably expect to make money with the data and not get rolled over. The question then becomes, who is paying HFTs and why. The highly simplified answer is that HFTs are allowed by the regulatory agencies/exch…

No, if the flow is non toxic it's easy to make money from. You pocket the spread and eventually you do the same on the other side to get flat. No shenanigans required.

Re: Morgan Stanley to Buy E-Trade for $13B

#105
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The central bank could start raising rates. There are very good arguments for temporarily lowering rates to stimulate the economy, but the arguments for keeping it this way for 5-10 years are weaker. Especially if it discourages savings, as in the long term economic growth requires savings (in the economic sense, wherein there is a choice to "save" or "consume" our output, and only the "saved" output can be invested…

They would if they could. https://www.ft.com/content/478fe908-5168-11ea-8841-482eed003... Sweden raised rates recently, but only back to zero. Swedish banks - for some reason - simply waited for the NIRP to pass and moaned. [from the link]: Johan Torgeby, chief executive of one of Sweden’s largest banks SEB, says lenders involved in fixed income “struggled for years” and calls the end of sub-zero rates “good news”. H…

>And simply increasing savings doesn't automatically lead to more investment

Yep, but in the longer term (decades), all other things being equal a country that is saving 2% will have less investment taking place than that same country saving 5%.

> Banks most reliant on retail deposits have the strongest incentive to convert their EL (excess liquidity), created by the APP, into loans - and our results document that they did so.

One problem is we don't have clear insight into how risky these loans are. If a bank is incentivised to give out loans just to avoid having to pay the central bank interest, it may end up taking on riskier loans than it otherwise would have (if it didn't think they were too risky, it would already have made them). And even if this is not the case, and it's only giving loans because now even a low return of e.g. 0.5% looks good, there's a limit on how cheaply it can offer loans because it still has to cover all its own costs.

>Isn't the problem that the market rate would lead us to deflation?

Empirically it's not clear that would definitely lead to worse outcomes. Europe and the US managed to sustain high rates of growth during deflationary times throughout the 19th century, and while there were crashes during that period they weren't as severe as the Great Depression. In the short run it would definitely be painful, as savings rates increased, but there's a hard cap on this. E.g. everybody needs to eat, they're not going to starve themselves for a week just because food will be marginally cheaper next week. Like how people kept buying computers during the 2000s even though the price of compute was halving every year.

There's an interesting argument for why deflation is bad that I read in a labour economics textbook once, termed wage stickiness. Essentially, if there's deflation we might see labour prices falling every year (but falling less than other prices, so purchasing power still increases). Wage floors (minimum wages, inflexible contracts) however prevent this from happening, prevent the market from clearing. This is one reason unemployment was so bad during the great depression: wage floors introduced by the government to stabilise things ended up preventing wages from adjusting to the new price levels, causing unemployment as the value of good produced wasn't enough to pay those wages. Imagine if the price of every good fell by 90% today: suddenly a $10 minimum wage would be the equivalent of a $100 minimum wage in real terms, causing massive unemployment.

Politically, that's a hard problem to solve, so I can see why many people prefer inflation.

Re: Morgan Stanley to Buy E-Trade for $13B

#106
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Robinhood has terrible order execution. I switched to TDA after getting sick of limit orders executing nowhere near my limit price. Market orders were abysmal as well

Limit orders can only execute at the limit price or better. Are you saying that you were getting better prices than you expected, or am I completely misreading this?

Robinhood would ignore my limit and execute above it on buys

Re: Morgan Stanley to Buy E-Trade for $13B

#107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't used apple pay since touch-less cards came out. It'll be interesting to see how they pivot to something beyond pure convenience. I highly doubt the target consumer cares about security. It'll also be interesting to see how far tech companies are willing to partner given increased regulation and scrutiny when finance is involved

What? Touch-less cards were available long before Apple Pay

For me they weren't until recently (US). Our card technology is always a years behind the rest of the world, we still use checks

Re: Morgan Stanley to Buy E-Trade for $13B

#108
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They would if they could. https://www.ft.com/content/478fe908-5168-11ea-8841-482eed003... Sweden raised rates recently, but only back to zero. Swedish banks - for some reason - simply waited for the NIRP to pass and moaned. [from the link]: Johan Torgeby, chief executive of one of Sweden’s largest banks SEB, says lenders involved in fixed income “struggled for years” and calls the end of sub-zero rates “good news”. H…

>And simply increasing savings doesn't automatically lead to more investment Yep, but in the longer term (decades), all other things being equal a country that is saving 2% will have less investment taking place than that same country saving 5%. > Banks most reliant on retail deposits have the strongest incentive to convert their EL (excess liquidity), created by the APP, into loans - and our results document that th…

> Yep, but in the longer term (decades), all other things being equal a country that is saving 2% will have less investment taking place than that same country saving 5%.

Sure, but that means they are rather different economies. If one economy can save 5% it will - by definition of the identity - invest 5%, so it'll grow much faster. If it can find the demand to service, which directly leads back to the problem of consumption (spending vs saving).

The interest rate should be orthogonal to actually saving or spending. It just happens that since we want stability of prices, coins, notes, money in our accounts, and steady growth, instead of constant 2.00% central bank interest rate we vary the rate. If the central bank could simply rewrite a lot of numbers all around it could keep the base rate constant. But people would go mad, and people would come up with a new model that just translates back everything and blurts out the actual money supply and base rate changes.

Yes, there's talk about zombie corps, because money is cheap. But so is money to invest in new companies to compete with these zombies. Plus, if they don't make real money, then investing them makes no sense, buying their bonds make no sense, and extending them credit makes no sense, no matter how small the interest rate is. (Sure, they can live on smaller margins, but that doesn't make them literal zombies.)

Even in a negative interest situation creditors still need to price in risks. (People still need to pay them back on time. There's still administration and other kinds of overhead as you said.) For example the Danish mortgages are low risk, that's why the bank was able to offer them at negative rates. The moment negative interest rates start to seep into retail people will start to buy shit like there's no tomorrow. Which will push inflation up, and then the central bank moves out of the negative regime. And if all else fails, the central bank can simply buy government bonds, basically financing and encouraging public spending, which should open up the legislature to lower taxes, procure more stuff, etc.

> One problem is we don't have clear insight into how risky these loans are. If a bank is incentivised to give out loans just to avoid having to pay the central bank interest, it may end up taking on riskier loans than it otherwise would have (if it didn't think they were too risky, it would already have made them).

Agreed, yet in the face of deflation even risky busywork is better than nothing. At that point it's up to people, investors, speculators, legislators, to take risks and invest (to increase efficiency so more of the output becomes economic surplus which can be then spent/invested) or consume (to increase demand so investment becomes profitable).

The financial sector can scream all it wants about being squeezed tight, but it's not like they are the paragons of efficiency and foresight. Sometimes they are too risky (2008) sometimes they are too cautious (last year - all the talk about an impending recession, too long business cycle, etc.). And ultimately it's up to the population to prod their legislature to spend. (Related, but might be too cutting-edge: https://johnhcochrane.blogspot.com/2020/02/new-paper-fiscal-... - tl;dr a model that reproduces a lot of the empirical data, and shows how risk free return [gov debt] pays for itself)

The latest Eurostat report ( https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/documents/2995521/10159412/2-2... ) states EU inflation is around 1.4%. (0.2 %points of that is energy, which is pretty much just natural resource extraction, and should be ignored, as it's not something that results in economic growth in the EU - I'd argue.) So still a bit far from the 2% mark.

But at least the curve inches up.

> Like how people kept buying computers during the 2000s even though the price of compute was halving every year.

Interesting example. A lot of people bought the new computer because it enabled different things. And "decommissioned" the old one because it got obsolete. The desire for new coupled with the low price (thanks to mass production of standardized components) allowed people to substitute their old computer, even though they had to pay the "transaction price" (the price of the new computer, plus setup).

Similarly some folks argue that a Tesla car is so much better all around and it just happens to be an EV. (Though they are pretty pricey, so mass adoption is not happening, but stock prices indicate that a lot of folks think it or something like that will indeed happen.)

Companies/businesses were relatively slow to replace their computers. The large technology churn was (and is) fueled by newcomers, and people replacing their old rig.

That said, I have no problem with experimenting with deflation (especially because I despise these dumb hard-limit policies like minimum wage - https://danluu.com/discontinuities/ ), just as I have no problem with negative interest rates (because our central banks [and models, interchangeably] seem to understand that better).

Re: Morgan Stanley to Buy E-Trade for $13B

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not basically front running. Front running is specifically when a broker gets your order and sits on it until either they or another client can trade in front of it before the market moves. Market makers want to interact with retail orders since they typically don't have size and in aggregate are either non-directional or predictably directional. This reduces the market makers risk of adverse selection.

If you want to define front-running that way, then I agree HFTs don't front-run. But they do step in between buyers and sellers. If you want to call that something else, shrug.

Stepping in between buyers and sellers is called market making. They smooth supply and demand across time.

Also I don't define front running that way, FINRA does.

https://www.finra.org/rules-guidance/rulebooks/finra-rules/5...

Re: Morgan Stanley to Buy E-Trade for $13B

#110
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Limit orders can only execute at the limit price or better. Are you saying that you were getting better prices than you expected, or am I completely misreading this?

Robinhood would ignore my limit and execute above it on buys

Super illegal if true: https://www.finra.org/contact-finra/whistleblower
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