Kickstarter employees vote to unionize • Hacker News Board

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#841

Post by OJFord » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 2:26 AM UTC

aidenn0 wrote: post #785

mprovost wrote: post #743

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the amount spent on actual hardware must be at an all time low. The first lab I interned at in high school in the early 90s, every programmer had both a Symbolics workstation and a NeXTcube on their desk. (In a private office, of course). That represented a pretty significant investment. At my first "real" job, I got a Sun Ultra 5 workstation. These days you get the same Macbook Pro that everyone else can pick up…

Right, it was not uncommon in the 80s and 90s for your workstation to cost significantly more than your car did. The Ultra-5 was the cheap Sun work-station at $4k base price, as by 1999 Intel based workstations were starting to put pressure on Sun from below.

I could seriously do with more RAM, but I don't need a $4k computer.

In fact, since I have a MacBook but would be more than happy with a (Linux) ThinkPad, it might not even cost more.

My point is, we don't need 'hardware investment' for the sake of it. If places started doing that I'd rather BYO device, and pocket the difference between what I need and what they budget for.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#842

Post by OJFord » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 2:29 AM UTC

throwaway894345 wrote: post #709

ChuckMcM wrote: post #584

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Tech workers could have effectively used the leverage associated with unionization since at least 1984 during the semiconductor recession. Considering that the revenue per employee number is at an all time high, and the amount of money the company spends on the employee's working environment[1] is at record lows pretty much explains why this is going to be effective now when it wasn't before. There is also the issue…

Politics aside, I wonder if a tech union would have a strong incentive to make their individual workers irreplaceable--encourage them to hoard knowledge or make the code deliberately difficult for others to understand--such that the company would have a lot more to lose from a strike. As an outsider, most unions that I'm familiar with have employees that are more or less replaceable (one certified welder can fill in…

It wouldn't occur to anyone, it would just be a problem afterwards with them gone.

If anything 'obscure code' would just be a reason to get rid; have less of it and what there is is new guy's problem.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#843

Post by lawnchair_larry » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 2:40 AM UTC

calderarrow wrote: post #235

Coming from a public accounting background, I’ve seen a variety of businesses. Somewhat obviously, I’ve seen some be successful with unions and others be successful without, which makes sense, as unions are neither inherently good nor bad. They are a tool which can change the power dynamic and incentive structure of workers and employers throughout an organization, but there is nothing inherent about having a union t…

I don’t think there is much that management can do in this case. What you say is true where unions have historically shown up. But these times are different. Like most people pushing an agenda and participating in twitter outrage mobs, I think this is ideologically driven, and the employees have a very limited understanding of how unions work and when they are needed. It’s essentially a meme.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#844

Post by caymanjim » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 2:40 AM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #651

kerkeslager wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, frankly, fsk free snacks. Pay me the money you were going to spend on snacks, and I'll choose whether to spend it on snacks or not. And since the money spent on free snacks was probably about $20/week, it won't be a significant consideration in any of my decisions. Bus service might be more significant in some places, but every place I've ever lived had that subsidized by the government, and long commutes are a…

They are buying more than the snacks. They are buying you time, since you never need to make office grocery runs to stock your desk. Might not be a huge deal, but elimination of chores really is a perk.

> They are buying more than the snacks. They are buying you time, since you never need to make office grocery runs to stock your desk. Might not be a huge deal, but elimination of chores really is a perk.

Wrong. This is the complete opposite of what's happening. They aren't eliminating a chore you'd need to do. You're going to work 9-5 whether they provide free snacks or not, and you're going to snack. If they don't provide them, you're going to leave and go get them somewhere else. They're providing snacks to keep you from leaving the office. They get you at your desk longer. It's not a perk. It's a cheap way to extract more labor.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#845

Post by untog » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 2:42 AM UTC

TylerE wrote: post #651

kerkeslager wrote: post #646

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Also, frankly, fsk free snacks. Pay me the money you were going to spend on snacks, and I'll choose whether to spend it on snacks or not. And since the money spent on free snacks was probably about $20/week, it won't be a significant consideration in any of my decisions. Bus service might be more significant in some places, but every place I've ever lived had that subsidized by the government, and long commutes are a…

They are buying more than the snacks. They are buying you time, since you never need to make office grocery runs to stock your desk. Might not be a huge deal, but elimination of chores really is a perk.

No, they’re trying to make sure you never leave the office. A walk down the street to the nearest grocery store is a nice break, but not one the company wants you taking.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#846

Post by untog » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 2:45 AM UTC

sokoloff wrote: post #794

yumraj wrote: post #706

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. Why do tech workers need a union? 1. Fight ageism (every 20 year old today will grow up someday) 2. Fight open office layout (my opinion, may not be shared by everyone) 3. Fight for equal pay, discriminations of various sorts 4. Fight for reasonable share in success and against the massive differential between CxO and others' pay 5. Resist outsourcing where it makes sense ....... the list goes on ....

Many of the most talented or hardest working engineers might rationally be opposed to equal pay measures.

“equal pay” does not mean that all employees are paid the same amount...

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#847

Post by wpietri » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 2:48 AM UTC

jimbokun wrote: post #454

wpietri wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's becoming my take as well. I think the tech industry was, at least for a while, an exception here. Developers were so hard to get and retain that the power of individual workers did a lot to keep things sane. But I think that power is, for a variety of reasons, waning. If we want to keep our unusually good working conditions, and especially if we want to make sure our colleagues enjoy them as well, then I think…

"For example, imagine if WhatsApp had been a worker- or member-owned co-op." Given the price-per-employee WhatsApp got, they might have agreed to a buyout sooner as a co-op.

If it were possible to sell out, of course. But that depends a lot on the bylaws. And selling out also depends on the people who join.

I'll also note that there's nothing incompatible between being a worker-owned co-op and making a lot of money. Whatsapp had plenty of potential to generate revenue. Forbes estimates that it's making $4 billion/year. They could have paid their small staff incredibly well without having to sell out.

And one thing that people can't easily buy is interesting work. Even at my modest-for-a-tech-worker income, I'm choosing work by who I'm with and how interesting it is. If people already have more money than they can plausibly spend, would they take even more money to stop doing something they love, something that lets them influence the world at enormous scale? Some would, I'm sure. Some wouldn't.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#848

Post by stale2002 » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 2:51 AM UTC

elicash wrote: post #379

1. Why do tech workers need a union? If you want to improve your workplace, you have additional leverage to fight for changes if you're in a union. There's often very little you can do alone. This might be things like pay, or it might be something else entirely. 2. But aren't tech workers elite coddled rich kids who are lucky to make what they receive? I mean, no. But even if so, high pay doesn't stop athletes from j…

> Why not negotiate for a better workplace?

Well, that depends on what the union is negotiating for.

I can think of many things that a union might democraticly negotiate for that I would strong oppose.

Things such as putting of barriers to entry, like requiring a degree, or keeping our bootcampers, might be "beneficial" to the union members, but would be an absolute deal breaker to me.

The moment a union tried to pull up the ladder, and do something like that, is the moment that I attempt to sabotage everything that they do, regardless of the union democratically negotiating to screw over new developers.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#849

Post by lawnchair_larry » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 2:52 AM UTC

Ididntdothis wrote: post #802

bluGill wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you exactly equal to the worker next to you? If so collective bargaining makes sense because a good deal for everybody is the best deal you can get. If not, then collective bargaining is keeping some great people down. The fact that you said rockstar developer says you believe that there are some non-rockstar developers who are presumably worth less. Note that athletic unions do not bargain for wages in general (…

“Are you exactly equal to the worker next to you?” From the point of view of management one or two levels up from you, you are viewed as exactly the same. Most companies have narrow salary ranges for each level and you get more money mainly by being promoted. In a union shop this is no different.

This suggests that you are unfamiliar with modern compensation structures at tech companies. Stock awards are the major differentiator. In a union shop, this is very different.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#850

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 19, 2020, 2:58 AM UTC

gamblor956 wrote: post #779

miscPerson wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Respectfully, plenty of misandrists and anti-White racists do show up to those meetings and join panels to push their discriminatory agenda. Why do you think we talk about the lack of women in STEM, but not the lack of men in HR, education, social work, psychology, etc? Because bigots set the agenda. Having sports programs for one sex has been ruled illegal under Title IX — but how many universities have special tuto…

There are plenty of men in HR, education, and social work. Men simply don't go into those fields as much as women do because they pay less than comparable positions in other fields. Case in point: the number of men in nursing has been increasing every year without having any gender-based outreach efforts, because nurses make good money, get longer weekends, and you don't need 10 years of degrees to become a nurse. Si…

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