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Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

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Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#451

Post by baron816 »

mdonahoe wrote: post #411
elicash wrote: post #379

1. Why do tech workers need a union? If you want to improve your workplace, you have additional leverage to fight for changes if you're in a union. There's often very little you can do alone. This might be things like pay, or it might be something else entirely. 2. But aren't tech workers elite coddled rich kids who are lucky to make what they receive? I mean, no. But even if so, high pay doesn't stop athletes from j…

"Athletes unionize" is one of the better arguments I've heard for why devs should. I'm curious to learn more about the origins of the players' union.

I disagree. Professional sports leagues are both monopolies and monopsonies (meaning they’re the only ones hiring those specialized athletes). So the market dynamics are very different from that of tech. If you’re a NFL linebacker, you don’t really have an option to switch leagues if you’re unhappy with how it’s run. If you’re a software engineer, you can switch companies very easily.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#452

Post by bluGill »

Barrin92 wrote: post #321
dmix wrote: post #310

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I get the impression a lot of tech companies aren't doing it out of particular absolute need for such a strong a hammer, but because they can and it suits their ideology for legitimately bad stuff they see happening in other industries. It always made 100x more sense to me on some factory floor in the early 20th century than it does in a tech startup like environment in 2020, plus some labour jobs in between. I can j…

>It always made 100x more sense to me on some factory floor in the early 20th century than it does in a tech startup like environment in 2020. Why does that make more sense? The point of unionization is collective bargaining. Collective bargaining is effective whether you have 30 rockstar ninja developers or blue collar workers on a factory floor. In either case the collective action helps amplifying the workforce's…

Are you exactly equal to the worker next to you? If so collective bargaining makes sense because a good deal for everybody is the best deal you can get. If not, then collective bargaining is keeping some great people down.

The fact that you said rockstar developer says you believe that there are some non-rockstar developers who are presumably worth less.

Note that athletic unions do not bargain for wages in general (they will put in minimum and sometimes maximum, but not individual wages)

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#453

Post by papreclip »

Mvandenbergh wrote: post #48
kirstenbirgit wrote: post #15

What's the benefit of being in a union for highly specialized tech workers that are very in demand?

I think most Americans mostly have experience with blue collar unions, often ones that represent relatively unskilled labour. Consider though that even in the US, there are plenty of unions (or things which are effectively unions) which represent highly differentiated and skilled professions. Notably, directors, actors, and writers in American film and television are unionised. That does not mean that everyone is pai…

AMA and ABA are protectionist and "America-first", though. The tech unionization movement is full of people who favor open borders and the like

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#454

Post by jimbokun »

wpietri wrote: post #400
zpallin wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Generally speaking for well run, ethical companies, whose management actively try to do the right thing, unions add unnecessary redundancy and bureaucracy. The only type of "well run, ethical companies" where unions are redundant are worker-owned cooperatives . Otherwise, an employer, regardless of how ethical they are, can never replicate the most critical aspect of unions: collective bargaining rights . Sure, an…

That's becoming my take as well. I think the tech industry was, at least for a while, an exception here. Developers were so hard to get and retain that the power of individual workers did a lot to keep things sane. But I think that power is, for a variety of reasons, waning. If we want to keep our unusually good working conditions, and especially if we want to make sure our colleagues enjoy them as well, then I think…

"For example, imagine if WhatsApp had been a worker- or member-owned co-op."

Given the price-per-employee WhatsApp got, they might have agreed to a buyout sooner as a co-op.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#455

Post by arrosenberg »

proc0 wrote: post #419
zpallin wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Generally speaking for well run, ethical companies, whose management actively try to do the right thing, unions add unnecessary redundancy and bureaucracy. The only type of "well run, ethical companies" where unions are redundant are worker-owned cooperatives . Otherwise, an employer, regardless of how ethical they are, can never replicate the most critical aspect of unions: collective bargaining rights . Sure, an…

Bargaining rights don't come for free. At the end of the day, unless you are the owner of the company or union leaders, you are basically serving two masters.

That's a pretty pessimistic way to look at it. Without a union or being a high-skilled worker, you are 100% serving your corporate overlord. In well-run unions the leadership serves the membership, not the other way around. With a good union you are serving yourself in a far more significant way than without the union.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#456

Post by totaldude87 »

proc0 wrote: post #419
zpallin wrote: post #376

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Generally speaking for well run, ethical companies, whose management actively try to do the right thing, unions add unnecessary redundancy and bureaucracy. The only type of "well run, ethical companies" where unions are redundant are worker-owned cooperatives . Otherwise, an employer, regardless of how ethical they are, can never replicate the most critical aspect of unions: collective bargaining rights . Sure, an…

Bargaining rights don't come for free. At the end of the day, unless you are the owner of the company or union leaders, you are basically serving two masters.

>>you are basically serving two masters.

Though technically the truth, the inherent understanding is that at-least at the union side , you can have your voice heard, a.k.a a minimal guarantee that you will be heard by one of those masters.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#457

Post by bluGill »

Ididntdothis wrote: post #365
toasterlovin wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or when the union leadership becomes unreasonable.

From what I have seen it’s mostly management that gets greedy first.

Who was first doesn't change the fact that unions are sometimes unreasonable.

Though I have to say most companies I've seen with evil unions have management that deserves the worst a union can do. I've seen cases of good management with bad unions harming everybody (except the union leaders), but they are generally rare.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#458

Post by vharuck »

_sbrk wrote: post #68

I worked in a union shop once, as a summer intern. Every day, we were told to be in the break room at 7:59am to begin promptly at the 8am bell. By 4:30 or 4:45pm, everyone was back in there, waiting for the clock to hit 5pm. One day, I needed to connect two PCs together, which was approved by boss as they would be isolated from the network. So, being the diligent type, I went off and found some network cards and a ca…

Sounds more like the union added contract terms preventing the business from hiring somebody for position X and "asking" or even "allowing" them to do the tadks if position Y (which might pay more than X).

A lot of times, rules are cryptic and complex because they were adapted to prevent a workaround.

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#459

Post by swang »

baron816 wrote: post #451
mdonahoe wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Athletes unionize" is one of the better arguments I've heard for why devs should. I'm curious to learn more about the origins of the players' union.

I disagree. Professional sports leagues are both monopolies and monopsonies (meaning they’re the only ones hiring those specialized athletes). So the market dynamics are very different from that of tech. If you’re a NFL linebacker, you don’t really have an option to switch leagues if you’re unhappy with how it’s run. If you’re a software engineer, you can switch companies very easily.

what if apple, google, intel, adobe, pixar, lucasfilms all conspire to suppress your wages? great you can switch to another company that doesn't pay you your worth.

https://www.latimes.com/business/technology/la-fi-tn-tech-jo...

Re: Kickstarter employees vote to unionize

#460

Post by ticmasta »

mdonahoe wrote: post #411
elicash wrote: post #379

1. Why do tech workers need a union? If you want to improve your workplace, you have additional leverage to fight for changes if you're in a union. There's often very little you can do alone. This might be things like pay, or it might be something else entirely. 2. But aren't tech workers elite coddled rich kids who are lucky to make what they receive? I mean, no. But even if so, high pay doesn't stop athletes from j…

"Athletes unionize" is one of the better arguments I've heard for why devs should. I'm curious to learn more about the origins of the players' union.

They don't unionize though, they have a player's union. This is not the same thing. There is no collective bargaining process in professional sports that matches the typical public sector and athletes are not salaried employees. Nothing stops the top performers from negotiating a more lucrative contract. They also make a huge portion of their earnings via 3rd party engagements which a FT salaried employee cannot do.

The player's union in sports caps downside for all; unions for the rest of us cap both the downside and upside and replace the current (often flawed) performance metrics with worse ones (aka seniority).

If we focused on the bigger issue of properly classifying all these contract "gig" workers as employees we'd get a lot further than "protecting" coddled tech workers.

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