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The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

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Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#321

Post by effie »

jariel wrote: post #299
effie wrote: post #274

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> real underlying issue, which is that Huawei and others have been systematically and openly stealing property. Issue for whom? Most people are perfectly happy with one company learning and mimicking products of another company, if they get cheaper and better versions. This is perfectly natural. If some rich guys feel like China got ahead of them too much too quickly, that's too bad - they should have protected their…

Sending in spies to steal protected information is blatant theft by any definition. The number of people here trying to downplay what's going on is astonishing, I can only imagine they themselves are not legit posters.

State and corporate espionage isn't anything new. As well as learning and copying business (your "theft"). Japanese did the same with semiconductors.

I don't know what _exactly_ has been going on with Huawei and other companies, but I understand that the publicized outrage about Huawei and other Chinese companies stealing from America isn't natural. Most people were fine with Chinese advancing and copying, since everybody benefited from cheap labor/products. Until the powerful in the West realized american economy is in bad shape, power balance in the world is shifting and it's time to do something about it. I guess shaping public opinion on China is part of that.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#322

Post by dependenttypes »

jariel wrote: post #300
sneak wrote: post #281

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The concept of IP is a relatively recent invention, created by legislatures to prop up specific industries hurt by copying of data, and, as is being demonstrated, not everyone agrees that it should be treated the same as existing systems of physical property. You wouldn’t download a car. But I would. I don’t think it’s possible to steal information.

This history of IP is not relevant. China knows the rules and they broke them. Therefore, there must be consequences.

> China knows the rules and they broke them

So did Turing.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#323

Post by jariel »

effie wrote: post #321
jariel wrote: post #299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sending in spies to steal protected information is blatant theft by any definition. The number of people here trying to downplay what's going on is astonishing, I can only imagine they themselves are not legit posters.

State and corporate espionage isn't anything new. As well as learning and copying business (your "theft"). Japanese did the same with semiconductors. I don't know what _exactly_ has been going on with Huawei and other companies, but I understand that the publicized outrage about Huawei and other Chinese companies stealing from America isn't natural. Most people were fine with Chinese advancing and copying, since ever…

"State and corporate espionage isn't anything new."

'State espionage' for issues of security is understandable and nobody is screaming about it.

"I understand that the publicized outrage about Huawei and other Chinese companies stealing from America isn't natural"

This is really not true. It's 100% natural to be concerned about the blatant theft of research and IP.

Literally Huawei was rewarding staffers for stuff they'd stolen.

In fact, I'd argue that it's 'unnatural' for people not to be concerned about it.

"Most people were fine with Chinese advancing and copying, since everybody benefited from cheap labor/products. "

No way - that was not 'China stealing IP' - that was China using their competitive advantage: labour, factories, supply chains to add value. This is a good thing and few were complaining other than those who lost jobs. Everyone else was winning.

"Until the powerful in the West realized american economy is in bad shape" ?

The US has the lowest unemployment in 25 years, the lowest unemployment ever for African Americans, stocks are at crazy all-time highs. While nobody will ever say it's rosy, and historical growth is a little low, the US is overall doing just fine.

This is all a distraction: China and Huawei stealing IP and other elements and it's blatantly illegal and a serious transgression of international norms of trade.

Why would any company in the world even allow Huawei staff anywhere near their workers or offices, knowing that they're literally trying to steal whatever they can? The consequences of this are real and will factor into how nations contemplate trading with China.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#324

Post by killjoywashere »

renox wrote: post #316
Whatarethese wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They have a Gigafactory in China. Cars made in China stay there.

Not so sure about IP used in this (or other) factory though..

I am willing to bet every piece of equipment bound for that factory is inspected by Chinese engineers for interestingness. The plant is imaged during down time for documentation of any other interestingness.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#325

Post by tekknik »

bennyelv wrote: post #265
WoahNoun wrote: post #221

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They stole IP from western companies so they could reach the bleeding edge and then spent billions on R&D research to get ahead. Without the decades of IP theft, the R&D achievements never happen. No western company should trust their 5G equipment.

I don’t see how your conclusion follows from the premise. I don’t think anyone really doubts that they’ve stolen IP, but it doesn’t follow from that that their 5G equipment is therefore untrustworthy. That conclusion requires its own evidence, and also presentation of the wider context about why we should trust equipment from other manufacturers instead.

It does follow. Question why they would steal it and realize the Chinese government can force them to do whatever they want. Given they’ve been stealing IP it’s clear this is already happening. Then start questioning why? It’s a very interesting position to be in to have built a majority of the worlds wireless networks, especially with that type of gov.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#326

Post by tripzilch »

WoahNoun wrote: post #221
throwawei wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the stealing instead of R&D thing is somewhat misled. These guys are definitely spending billions on research as well. I get the concern, and fines and punishment is all fine. But I think they might also have got caught in the geopolitical crossfire. It's a messy world; Samsung and Apple are stealing eachother's billions everyday, Google and Facebook are spying on us, DOD is killing people. I don't know who i…

They stole IP from western companies so they could reach the bleeding edge and then spent billions on R&D research to get ahead. Without the decades of IP theft, the R&D achievements never happen. No western company should trust their 5G equipment.

> Without the decades of IP theft, the R&D achievements never happen.

Because they're incapable?

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#327

Post by tripzilch »

jorblumesea wrote: post #211
throwawei wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the stealing instead of R&D thing is somewhat misled. These guys are definitely spending billions on research as well. I get the concern, and fines and punishment is all fine. But I think they might also have got caught in the geopolitical crossfire. It's a messy world; Samsung and Apple are stealing eachother's billions everyday, Google and Facebook are spying on us, DOD is killing people. I don't know who i…

> But I think they might also have got caught in the geopolitical crossfire I think it's extremely naive to think that Huawei is just an innocent victim. Almost willfully so. > I think the stealing instead of R&D thing is somewhat misled. These guys are definitely spending billions on research as well. If you really think Huawei's R&D theft is blown out of proportion, there's a huge mountain of evidence that suggests…

> I think it's extremely naive

> Almost willfully so.

> I don't expect you to say anything bad about the hand that feeds you. Given Huawei's reputation, they're probably monitoring you as we speak.

I think your post would have been just fine making your point without these remarks. It's just someone sharing their experience, that's what I'm reading the comment threads for. We can all see it's a new throwaway account without you lashing out at them.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#328

Post by jorblumesea »

tripzilch wrote: post #327
jorblumesea wrote: post #211

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But I think they might also have got caught in the geopolitical crossfire I think it's extremely naive to think that Huawei is just an innocent victim. Almost willfully so. > I think the stealing instead of R&D thing is somewhat misled. These guys are definitely spending billions on research as well. If you really think Huawei's R&D theft is blown out of proportion, there's a huge mountain of evidence that suggests…

> I think it's extremely naive > Almost willfully so. > I don't expect you to say anything bad about the hand that feeds you. Given Huawei's reputation, they're probably monitoring you as we speak. I think your post would have been just fine making your point without these remarks. It's just someone sharing their experience, that's what I'm reading the comment threads for. We can all see it's a new throwaway account…

I think my points are highly relevant. Questioning their intent and motive is an important part of what I was getting at. Highly suspect in every sense of the word.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#329

Post by chillacy »

jvanderbot wrote: post #304
chillacy wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmm no but if everyone in MLB did steroids to get to where they are then I’m not going to be that surprised when I find out the rookie is juicing.

You wont be surprised, but you'll punish the rookie or anyone else who fails a drug test just the same. Im not surprised corps and countries steal from eachother, but I expect them to be punished when caught.

Oh totally I am of the opinion that the US needs to step up its IP protection. It only makes strategic sense to protect your competitive advantage.

I'm just pointing out that every other nation seems to have gone through a phase of "cheating" to get to where they are, to the point where I can't even say with 100% certainty that it's possible to become a technological superpower without doing it.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#330

Post by johnchristopher »

sangnoir wrote: post #306
johnchristopher wrote: post #229

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It all depends of what you make of that comparison. Are you saying it's okay because others did it before ? That it shouldn't be debated ? What's the position ? What is the point of preventing people from saying China is playing the IP theft game hard at the moment ?

> Are you saying it's okay because others did it before ? Yes and no - it depends entirely on whose perspective you are arguing from (upstart vs. establishment), and even that changes over time. For the US, it used to be okay, but no longer is. Also it's not "others" who did it before, but the very same nation-state that is now screaming blue murder. > That it shouldn't be debated ? Oh, it should absolutely be debate…

> Also it's not "others" who did it before, but the very same nation-state that is now screaming blue murder.

Well, this is the classic continuity problem: is the US from centuries ago the same US of today ?

> Oh, it should absolutely be debated, but the US has no moral high ground when making its arguments. Turnabout is fair play

I am from Europe. Anyway, I disagree. Moral stances aren't cancelled because past wrongdoings.

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