How ~75% of PirateBay traffic is seeded by 100 people driven by profit • Hacker News Board

Re: How ~75% of PirateBay traffic is seeded by 100 people driven by profit

#41

Post by DanielBMarkham » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 4:17 PM UTC

wladimir wrote: post #35

mahmud wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Everything is a market. Any time people get together, for any purpose, trading occurs. The truth of that assertion hinges on us not remembering the billion other counter-examples. It might comfort free-market capitalists like ourselves to paint humanity with that thick brush, but truth tells differently: people don't always gather with the intention to buy/sell, in fact, sometimes, commercial intent is detrimental to…

Just that trading occurs anywhere people get together doesn't mean everything is a market. I'd have liked to +10 you. It's so hip these days to see everything in the context of economics, as a market. In my opinion that's actually hurting our understanding of human behaviour, by trivializing every interaction.

It trivializes it only if you draw some grand conclusions from economic theory.

I think many times we get the simple fact that humans are traders mixed up with all this political and economic theory nonsense. To acknowledge that people are always trading is an important observation in itself, and doesn't imply any other conclusions. Draw your own.

If anything, it looks like the study of economics is doing exactly what you say: it's showing that these trades many times are irrational, are not for money, and are driven by as many complex forces as exist in the human psyche.

So you can start with "it's all a market" and end up with the complexities of human existence, or you can start with "It's not all economics" and end up with the complexities of human existence. Same difference. Either way, the problem is taking huge generalizations and beating them with a rhetorical hammer until they fit some personal worldview, not the observation of the phenomenon itself.

Re: How ~75% of PirateBay traffic is seeded by 100 people driven by profit

#42

Post by hackermom » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 5:15 PM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #31

hackermom wrote: post #18

Having been part of the "XviD scene" for many years in the not too distant past, I have to say that the whole angle on this being profit-driven is just... wrong. NFO-files have been around since the early days of BBS trading in the Amiga scene and the PC scene alike, and the presence of web addresses in these files today doesn't change the reality that people just don't care for reading the NFOs when it comes to audi…

The trouble with a declaration like this is that it has no basis in fact, just your own personal experience. I have never seen anybody click on an ad on a webpage. By your reasoning that means that obviously no-one clicks them. And yet google makes billions off it. Apparently 10% of internet users make up almost all the advert clicks. I would agree that it's even more of a small % for nfo files and txt files in torre…

"The trouble with a declaration like this is that it has no basis in fact, just your own personal experience. I have never seen anybody click on an ad on a webpage. By your reasoning that means that obviously no-one clicks them."

You're trying to stand the needle on its tip with those assumptions. You're assuming that my experience is that of a simple, casual bystander - a random "torrenter" - despite that I informed that I for many years up until just recently was a part of the video scene. I know the territory, and I know "the people", just like any other seasoned member of any other movement knows their territory. Take my word for it: there isn't good, or even ok'ish money to be made here.

Re: How ~75% of PirateBay traffic is seeded by 100 people driven by profit

#43

Post by hackermom » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 5:17 PM UTC

hippich wrote: post #38

hackermom wrote: post #18

Having been part of the "XviD scene" for many years in the not too distant past, I have to say that the whole angle on this being profit-driven is just... wrong. NFO-files have been around since the early days of BBS trading in the Amiga scene and the PC scene alike, and the presence of web addresses in these files today doesn't change the reality that people just don't care for reading the NFOs when it comes to audi…

So, where is profit for groups like XviD?

There isn't any. At best you might be lucky to strike a few bucks taking light payment for leech accounts on FTPs - but this is very, very rare, because nobody needs to pay to get their warez these days. If you are looking to make money in the warez scene, look to the release groups supplying software. That's where money can be made by taking offers to plant malware in software releases - more than a few large groups have been caught red-handed doing this. Pirated software is an incredibly efficient vector for reaching out to masses.

Re: How ~75% of PirateBay traffic is seeded by 100 people driven by profit

#44

Post by winxordie » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 6:00 PM UTC

mahmud wrote: post #36

msh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a market dont require the intention of buying and selling, just the exchange of something in return for something else.

a market dont require the intention of buying and selling, just the exchange of something in return for something else. Exchange of what? Goods and services for other goods and services of comparable value, or cash, or notes of debt? Is that not the definition of a market? Here is a human gathering for you: a funeral. What goods & services are changing hands? And please don't say "the family's savings going to the fu…

Money is exchanged for the rite of ceremonial burial. Most people don't just stick their mum into the ground - it's just not "proper". Social factors require a ritual market in most societies.

Re: How ~75% of PirateBay traffic is seeded by 100 people driven by profit

#45

Post by anamax » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 6:05 PM UTC

mahmud wrote: post #32

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #24

A couple of things struck me while reading this article: 1) Everything is a market. Any time people get together, for any purpose, trading occurs. That means the art of trading -- your time for a few ads, or whatever -- is happening. The users of Pirate Bay may be sticking it to the man or whatnot, but it's just another marketplace -- albeit one with much cheaper entry and transaction costs. (So it's a winner for the…

Everything is a market. Any time people get together, for any purpose, trading occurs. The truth of that assertion hinges on us not remembering the billion other counter-examples. It might comfort free-market capitalists like ourselves to paint humanity with that thick brush, but truth tells differently: people don't always gather with the intention to buy/sell, in fact, sometimes, commercial intent is detrimental to…

>> Everything is a market. Any time people get together, for any purpose, trading occurs. > The truth of that assertion hinges on us not remembering the billion other counter-examples.

It would have been nice if you'd have provided some of those counter-examples.

> people don't always gather with the intention to buy/sell

There's your problem - you think that trading only involves money. It doesn't. It's the exchange of value.

Yes, you hang around with your friends because you get more out of doing that than it costs you to do so.

Yes, someone will try to impose costs on you to affect your choices. You'll try to avoid them.

Re: How ~75% of PirateBay traffic is seeded by 100 people driven by profit

#46

Post by steveklabnik » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 6:06 PM UTC

Stormbringer wrote: post #26

dalore wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They still have those ASCII art and scene dumpsites. Problem is that someone with access to scene material takes that, and then retags it with their shitty website and uploads it to bittorrent.

What a shame that their beautiful art which they invested time and energy into is being misappropriated by someone else so that they cannot profit from their creative endeavours.

The difference is that the scene shrugs and says "oh well, everyone knows who we are anyway" and doesn't try to bring the power of the state to bear.

Re: How ~75% of PirateBay traffic is seeded by 100 people driven by profit

#47

Post by aw3c2 » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 6:41 PM UTC

hackermom wrote: post #43

hippich wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So, where is profit for groups like XviD?

There isn't any. At best you might be lucky to strike a few bucks taking light payment for leech accounts on FTPs - but this is very, very rare, because nobody needs to pay to get their warez these days. If you are looking to make money in the warez scene, look to the release groups supplying software. That's where money can be made by taking offers to plant malware in software releases - more than a few large groups…

more than a few large groups have been caught red-handed doing this

References please!

Re: How ~75% of PirateBay traffic is seeded by 100 people driven by profit

#48

Post by Semiapies » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 6:59 PM UTC

mahmud wrote: post #36

msh wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

a market dont require the intention of buying and selling, just the exchange of something in return for something else.

a market dont require the intention of buying and selling, just the exchange of something in return for something else. Exchange of what? Goods and services for other goods and services of comparable value, or cash, or notes of debt? Is that not the definition of a market? Here is a human gathering for you: a funeral. What goods & services are changing hands? And please don't say "the family's savings going to the fu…

Do you really think you're saying anything useful by baldly ignoring the context of the original statement in order to make a fuss over "free market capitalists"?

The context is not funerals or family reunions or random events, it's communities of people interacting over time.

Re: How ~75% of PirateBay traffic is seeded by 100 people driven by profit

#49

Post by chris11 » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 7:05 PM UTC

mattmanser wrote: post #31

hackermom wrote: post #18

Having been part of the "XviD scene" for many years in the not too distant past, I have to say that the whole angle on this being profit-driven is just... wrong. NFO-files have been around since the early days of BBS trading in the Amiga scene and the PC scene alike, and the presence of web addresses in these files today doesn't change the reality that people just don't care for reading the NFOs when it comes to audi…

The trouble with a declaration like this is that it has no basis in fact, just your own personal experience. I have never seen anybody click on an ad on a webpage. By your reasoning that means that obviously no-one clicks them. And yet google makes billions off it. Apparently 10% of internet users make up almost all the advert clicks. I would agree that it's even more of a small % for nfo files and txt files in torre…

While there might be a little money in piracy, I doubt there is any serious money. I think that if you had the ability and talent to set up a popular site dealing with piracy, then it would be much more profitable to do something in some other market. For example, look at the piratebay. I'd say that the TPB has had a huge impact on the world. Any other startup that experienced their growth would be considered widely successful. And it has got the owners no monetary benefits. The Swedish police investigation into the site concluded that TPB made less than $200,000 a year from advertisements and millions in legal fines. So I'd question anyone planning to make money off of piracy.

Re: How ~75% of PirateBay traffic is seeded by 100 people driven by profit

#50

Post by jonallanharper » Thu, Feb 17, 2011, 8:04 PM UTC

Profit is a form of value. Big surprise that people are deriving value in different ways. Anyone that uses PirateBay without deriving some sort of value is either irrational or has blindly accepted the irrational premises of altruism.