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The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

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Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#271

Post by stevens32 »

gramakri wrote: post #120
throwawei wrote: post #87

Using a throwaway to share our $0.02 relating to this. AMA I guess. We're a US-based startup that does about $100-200k in business annually with Futurewei (Huawei's R&D subsidiary). I've never dealt with Huawei proper. I can say they're genuinely investing in R&D, and trying to build a product unlike anything being offered right now. We're working with tech that's floating around the academic conferences, but no one…

I don't have a question but your throwaway username is fantastic.

Wish I could add more value to this comment.. but I also upvoted for the name.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#272

Post by effie »

bcrosby95 wrote: post #66
benaadams wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear OSS is doing well when it comes to innovation...

Most people working on OSS are paid by companies that rely heavily on closed source innovation in other areas of business. They are commoditizing their compliments.

Even if that claim about "most people" was true, the point is still valid - OSS contributors _are_ "innovating" (creating new things to make money on), despite the innovations being freely copied. In part, the innovation happens _because_ or _with_help_ of free copying. Free sharing of some ideas/knowledge can be benefitial to innovation.

Nobody is claiming _all_ ideas business finds / works on should be immediately shared freely with the world. The benefactors of a business are naturally motivated to protect their know-how. But it should be the business' responsibility to protect its secrets, not HN commenters or governments'. If an idea can't be kept secret, then government issues patents, which should be time limited and regional.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#273

Post by effie »

pnako wrote: post #144
benaadams wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear OSS is doing well when it comes to innovation...

Open-source software is great but it's generally more derivative than innovative (there are exceptions of course).

Innovation is a techno/bureau -cratic buzzword, which (noun) roughly means "new thing that is novel and can be used to boost the economy". A derivative of an old product can be an innovation, if you can still make or attract money on it.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#274

Post by effie »

jariel wrote: post #230
nimbius wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

in a lot of cases the low-cost competitors are not only lower cost but have more features and/or better performance. They side-step a lot of the planned obsolescence and intentional feature scarcity US companies have become so dependent on to avoid meaningful R&D. Its hard not to see a lot of them as sort of a Robin Hood. On topic though, Most of the pot-banging from Washington is at the behest of AT&T and other US c…

This is not true and implies a misunderstanding of the industry. AT&T, like most carriers, is perfectly happy to get super cheap and gear from China, at a fraction of the price they'd pay otherwise. In fact, carriers around the world are the one's pushing to use Huawei. Second - the US doesn't really have any capabilities in the 5G space, for the most part. It's European companies: Erikson and Nokia that have capabil…

> real underlying issue, which is that Huawei and others have been systematically and openly stealing property.

Issue for whom? Most people are perfectly happy with one company learning and mimicking products of another company, if they get cheaper and better versions. This is perfectly natural. If some rich guys feel like China got ahead of them too much too quickly, that's too bad - they should have protected their stuff, not teach Chinese to manufacture it.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#275

Post by stevens32 »

chalst wrote: post #250
chillacy wrote: post #231

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the Toyota factory museum in Japan they aren’t exactly ashamed of the fact that they bought, disassembled, and reverse engineered a Chrysler for their first few cars.

Reverse engineering is a legal form of IP imitation everywhere.

Isn't some engineer opening up a box and taking pictures something mentioned in this indictment?

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#276

Post by mattmanser »

mythrwy wrote: post #172
mattmanser wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony of this comment is that this intellectual property theft is what America did in the 1700-1800s to get ahead. And America eventually eclipsed the British that they were stealing from, so don't expect China to be "punished" too much.

The amount of invention and technological achievement developed in and by the US I would guess be an order of magnitude higher (at least, maybe 3) then any amount intellectual property theft from other nations in the 17-1800s. I would not guess this to be true of China nor likely to become true for a very long time at least.

It's actually vastly accelerated this time around, China are already overtaking America as experts in certain fields.

Because the Americans so helpfully moved all their manufacturing to China, they had to teach manufacturing and engineering to their Chinese workers to troubleshoot problems, and are now losing that ability themselves.

Turns out when you're designing a product it useful to have practical manufacturing experience, which the Americans have lost.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#277

Post by mattmanser »

oh_sigh wrote: post #152
mattmanser wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The irony of this comment is that this intellectual property theft is what America did in the 1700-1800s to get ahead. And America eventually eclipsed the British that they were stealing from, so don't expect China to be "punished" too much.

Maybe there's a difference from wholesale copying of blueprints, design docs, and millions of lines of software, and someone remembering how things work and going somewhere else.

No, read about it if you want.

Yours really is another ironic comment.

The British at least tried to stop it by making it illegal to take the machines out of the country

The Americans sent the machines to China themselves to save a few bucks on labor.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#278

Post by petjuh »

tatrajim wrote: post #196
sand_castles wrote: post #157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Same thing can be said about the US trying to overthrow the CCP during Mao when they banned food export during their great famine to try and trigger a revolution to remove them from power. Invaded Chinese sovereign territory during the Korean war and got beat back into the current border of South Korea. Supported a western friendly government during WW2 to take over China. In International relations there are no rule…

You might do well to visit the Flying Tigers Museum in Guilin to get a sense of what the U.S. did in China to save the Chinese from Japanese invasion. https://visitguilin.org/things-to-do/guilin-attractions/flyi... And if you insist on applying 18th and 19th century situations to current IP theft, then logically you should also be willing to accept what the British did to America: burn the capital. Is Huawei's IP har…

Didn't America attack british colonies in Canada in 1812? I thought America was the aggressor in that war and Britain just retaliated.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#279

Post by sand_castles »

otterley wrote: post #216
sand_castles wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

relax bro, we all stand in other's shoulders. also, you in what army ? are you going to invade Asia ?

There are two ways to stand on another’s shoulders. One is with consent; the other (to mix legal metaphors) is assault. It would be one thing if Huawei said, “do you mind if I use this?” and received permission. But if they had to use deception to gather information, that’s a pretty clear indication that it’s wrong and is done without consent.

The entire legal system that exists as of today is mainly to benefit rich folks.

You should read the book "Code of Capital".

The CCP has made it clear that "rule of law" as stated by Mr. Obama is about favoring western capital interests.

I think it's a bigger crime that 6 billion people do not get to enjoy the same standard of living as the 2 billion people on top.

By having no brittle IP rules, the CCP makes sure Chinese businesses stay dynamic and continue to dominate.

Re: The U.S. is charging Huawei with racketeering

#280

Post by DiogenesKynikos »

totalZero wrote: post #239
djrogers wrote: post #218

About a dozen years ago I was working for a small-ish hardware company ($350-400M revenue), which was acquired by a bigger company. BiggerCo had a Joint Venture with Huawei (let’s called it JVco). About 6 months Post acquisition one of our employees found that Huawei was selling a 100% complete rip-off of one of our products. JVco had access to some of our development resources, but Huawei was never supposed to see a…

Kind of makes you wonder why Boeing would build a finishing plant in Zhoushan and Apple would put so much of its iPhone production in Zhengzhou and Shenzhen.

China is Boeing's second largest market, and it will probably become Boeing's largest market in the next decade.[1]

In these discussions decrying how terribly the Chinese treat foreign companies, I see very little acknowledgment of how much money foreign companies have earned both by selling to the Chinese market, and by exploiting cheap labor in China.

1. https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2019-09-17/boeing-se...

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