I thought that it was a ripoff of the town from the Truman Show.
The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”
181–190 of 209 posts
Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”
#182Earlier quoted context omitted.
You’re the one moving the goal posts. We were not talking about whether the population of families was significant “enough to support a large number of businesses.” I was replying to a post that suggested New York was an example of “a living, breathing, functional and healthy” urban community. By my reckoning, middle class households with kids are underrepresented by a factor of six in Manhattan. That’s is a hugely d…
I'm normally in line with many of your arguments rayiner, (they're usually well supported by data which I like), but in reading through this particular thread in its entirety, it does appear that you've done a little goal post moving. Just as a matter of full disclosure, I feel that the absence of middle class families does not make an area any more unhealthy than the absence of, say, poor black families makes an are…
> Just as a matter of full disclosure, I feel that the absence of middle class families does not make an area any more unhealthy than the absence of, say, poor black families makes an area unhealthy. This is very much just a personal opinion here, but every demographic in a nation does not have to be proportionately represented in a community for that community to be "healthy".
I think for a community to be healthy, it must be designed to accommodate a normal person’s life cycle. For 90% of people, that means raising kids, and, eventually, grand kids. Current and future parents aren’t just any random demographic, they’re almost everybody. They’re up there with “people who use the bathroom at work.” A place that isn’t a good place for people to raise kids is literally unsustainable, and that’s not healthy.
The absence of middle class people in New York City, and the tendency of lower income families to leave when their incomes improve, is a strong signal that it’s not a good place for non-wealthy people to raise kids. I don’t think you can call a place that fails to accommodate such a basic life function “healthy.” New York City is literally unsustainable—it would cease to exist if it weren’t for continuous international immigration. Suburbia might be ugly and car dependent, but at least it’s a place where normal people can meet all of their life needs. (Note I’m not advocating for suburbia. I’m criticizing urbanists for failing to offer any solutions that speak to the 90% of people who have or want kids. They’re selling beautiful office buildings without bathrooms.)
Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”
#183Correct it's no vibrant, bustling organic downtown. But it's still a helluva lot better than nothing at all. The suburbs I grew up in? There were a bunch of shitty strip malls, and a single indoor mall with a single food court with zero natural lighting, taken over by teenagers after school because it was literally the only place to congregate besides the parking lot outside the supermarket. There was no local "cente…
> There was no local "center" at all for community.
Really? Your town didn't just put a sign in front your supermarket proclaiming the area the "Town Centre"? Centre because centre implies class and sophistication while center reeks of commoners. I wonder how much the genius "consultant" ( aka politician's family member ) got for that bright idea.
Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”
#184Correct it's no vibrant, bustling organic downtown. But it's still a helluva lot better than nothing at all. The suburbs I grew up in? There were a bunch of shitty strip malls, and a single indoor mall with a single food court with zero natural lighting, taken over by teenagers after school because it was literally the only place to congregate besides the parking lot outside the supermarket. There was no local "cente…
I think it seems fine as well, you can still accommodate parking in a different way. Perhaps make a multi story garage, or make it underground, but not if near the coast(flooding).
And if you want less parking structures maybe make more living space there, commercial on bottom and a few stories of residential on top. Overall the models look way better than 90% of the strip malls in America.
Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”
#185The most surreal of these developments that I've visited is the Town Square of Copperopolis, California.[1]
It's not visually unappealing, but is a rather odd addendum to a historic 19th c. town which apparently won't suffice for tourists or affluent retirees (not enough parking). It's just as managed and tidy as the developments discussed here. Speakers on light poles blare top 40 hits from the 1950s, for some reason.
[1] https://www.gocalaveras.com/location/california/gold-country...
Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”
#186Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hate to tell you, there is a place like this near where I live (Look up The Greene). I assure you, that place is effectively an outdoor mall. I rarely go there due to traffic in and out, I really dislike walking in it (drivers in there are in a hurry to park or leave, and have little concern for pedestrians, there is no "pedestrian only" space), and if I am going to a mall anyways, I would prefer an indoor mall whe…
Isn't what you're describing a symptom of the natural and inevitable crunch into the singularity of digital indoorism? Going outside at all is a hangover of a rapidly departing age. There's nothing out there anymore. Everything's in your home, except for food. Have it delivered, and you're solid. That just leaves commutes. Insofar as they're necessary, I agree with living in dense, hyperurban hive arcologies where ev…
So you see developers selling their stuff based on how nice it is to be outside, and your conclusion is that people don't want to be outside?
Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”
#187The trouble with "mixed-use development" is that an apartment building does not generate enough business for its ground floor shops. Which is why many of them are vacant. Or turned into low-value places like nail salons.
Very true. I estimate you need 15-20 floors above ground floor shopping to fill all the spaces. This based on observations that in Paris (4-5 stories) there is a block of ground floor shopping and then 3-5 without. Since I'm not an expert on Paris (never been there only seen picture and read reports) take that with some salt... Also most apartment developers don't know how to rent commercial spaces. So some ground fl…
It's definitely a problem with the "mixed use" buildings going up on the SF peninsula. The ground floor stores are marginal, vacant, or used as office space. A 5-story building can't support a convenience store by itself.
There have been startups which tried convenience stores that were giant vending machines, but that hasn't been successful. Amazon Go didn't really work out; there are a few stores, but no major deployment. There's a startup in China which puts automated stores in a shipping container sized box, but that hasn't been successful in the US.
Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”
#188Earlier quoted context omitted.
What is shown is not better than what you grew up in; it's the same. It's an outdoor mall, pretending to be a downtown. The only difference is that this mall doesn't have the food court and the giant corridors; instead it's outside where the rain and bugs can get to you.
Hey, at least it serves as a proof-of-concept to suburbanites that it is entirely possible to walk around outside without dying. It takes time to wean folks off of suburban malls and back into urban living: first we show them that the world is nicer than an air-conditioned mausoleum; then we show them that walking is wonderful; then we convince them to live where they can walk to work; then we all prosper!
> at least it serves as a proof-of-concept to suburbanites that it is entirely possible to walk around outside without dying.
Except for that whole "walls all the way to the sidewalk" thing. We've been getting tons of that in my town, and it's pretty much the death of walkability. It's claustrophobic and unpleasant, and people are staying away from the areas that have this in droves. The people that live there simply get in their cars are drive to somewhere nicer to do their stuff.
Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”
#189Earlier quoted context omitted.
I hate to tell you, there is a place like this near where I live (Look up The Greene). I assure you, that place is effectively an outdoor mall. I rarely go there due to traffic in and out, I really dislike walking in it (drivers in there are in a hurry to park or leave, and have little concern for pedestrians, there is no "pedestrian only" space), and if I am going to a mall anyways, I would prefer an indoor mall whe…
Isn't what you're describing a symptom of the natural and inevitable crunch into the singularity of digital indoorism? Going outside at all is a hangover of a rapidly departing age. There's nothing out there anymore. Everything's in your home, except for food. Have it delivered, and you're solid. That just leaves commutes. Insofar as they're necessary, I agree with living in dense, hyperurban hive arcologies where ev…
...what? I can't figure out what you're trying to say. I tried reading it several times.
Re: The Rise of “Movie-Set Urbanism”
#190Earlier quoted context omitted.
Yet people continue to walk around in those areas. There's masses of onstreet parking here in Berlin and not that much off street parking, but the footpaths are always crowded. It's the same in Melbourne - some parts have onstreet parking and lots of people, and some parts of only off street parking and few people. If getting people to walk between destinations is a goal, you should increase the proportion of on stre…
um walking why on earth did you jump to the conclusion, How do busses ambulances etc move through a city that has narrow streets crammed with cars. Of course with European city's with wide boulevards might not be as bad - though of course those wide streets are designed to stop barricades and to allow for the use of grape shot to stop the rioting presents.
> with European city's with wide boulevards
How many European cities have you visited? A few cross-city boulevards don't define the street layout. The average street width in Amsterdam is 9.5m, in Paris is 10.6m, in Brussels is 13.2m, and in Barcelona is 13.9m; compare with Manhattan's 15.9m.