Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#201

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 6:17 AM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #91

catalogia wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. From what I've seen, the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis,…

"the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis, takes off, flies then lands itself." Is this just being pedantic? If you say the autopilot doesn't land the plane, maybe a pilot would agree for all I know, but "autoland" seems to be a thing, right? When I read about "autoland" sy…

[deleted]

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#202

Post by skolsuper » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 6:18 AM UTC

benzor wrote: post #189

throwaway5752 wrote: post #166

There are going to be Autopilot crashes and people should disable it if they uncomfortable with putting their lives in the hands of Tesla's software. I would be. But I see no reason to not believe to not believe what they have on https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport It shows Teslas have much fewer accidents than the average car, and that Teslas with autopilot enabled are substantially safe per mile than with aut…

Your claim relies entirely on the veracity of Tesla's safety report. Unfortunately I am inclined to mistrust any such vehicle safety claims directly from Tesla's own website. There is a conflict of interest in that they are incentivized to publish the most favorable numbers. We should be rightly cynical and rely only on numbers from an independent third party, as we would normally do for other companies with a less f…

If they truly believe that the autopilot driving is safer than unassisted, they might reasonably consider it an immoral act not to ship it. Given the number of lives lost in auto accidents every day, the issue is not as clear-cut as you're suggesting. It's a real-world trolley problem.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#203

Post by lazyasciiart » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 6:18 AM UTC

liability wrote: post #198

PopeRigby wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think self driving cars are a ridiculous solution to a problem we created and doesn't need to exist. The US building out the country for cars wasn't a good way to do transportation. If we just had trains going from city to city and subways in the cities, we wouldn't even need self driving cars.

The 'problem' doesn't even exist; non-autonomous cars work fine in America. Autonomy is a luxury product.

Aside from those massive numbers of dead pedestrians. (Edit: not that I think autonomous cars is the answer - but it's clear that regular cars are a problem)

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#204

Post by spookthesunset » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 6:20 AM UTC

revscat wrote: post #182

spookthesunset wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not much of a leap between that and playing a video game with your phone, honestly.

You know, it’s almost like we’d benefit from having an autopilot system. I mean, think about it: people drive drunk, or tired, or get in fights with their mom on the phone, or have a crying baby demanding attention, or any number of other things like that. Wouldn’t it be awesome if we had something to help with that? Like, it doesn’t even have to do everything, just most of it, and keep you from running into shit. Th…

You can wish all we want but you don’t have an auto pilot system. The Tesla is auto pilot up until you actually do what their marketing (and fans) claim it does and get in an accident. Then both Tesla and the fanboys come out of the woodwork denying that it was ever intended to be used hands off even for a second. In fact Tesla goes way out of their way, presenting telemetry from the car itself “proving” the driver was not in control and thus it isn’t Tesla’s fault because the driver was an idiot and down in the fine print on line 42 section (B) it says Tesla isn’t an auto pilot and the driver should be in command of the vehicle at all times.

See also, this very thread. All though there seems to be a worryingly high number of people here and elsewhere who, like I said, brag about not paying attention to their driving in a Tesla while simultaneously claiming it isn’t actually “auto pilot” because airlines pilots have to pay attention or some hot garbage. You yourself openly admit to not lacking attention to your driving because you think the Tesla is in control. Basically, trying to have their cake and eat it too... kind of scary.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#205

Post by BoorishBears » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 6:20 AM UTC

throwaway5752 wrote: post #166

There are going to be Autopilot crashes and people should disable it if they uncomfortable with putting their lives in the hands of Tesla's software. I would be. But I see no reason to not believe to not believe what they have on https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport It shows Teslas have much fewer accidents than the average car, and that Teslas with autopilot enabled are substantially safe per mile than with aut…

Accidents without AP vs Accidents with AP isn't what's interesting.

Accidents without AP's overreaching half-baked features meant to serve as a marketing gimmick, but with safety technology that's been iterated for almost 20 years like LKAS and AEB, and is now getting affordable, is what's interesting.

Now a Corolla, the most conservative car in the history of mainstream cars, can return you to your lane and warn you if it feels you're making too many mistakes due to being tired.

These features save lives when they work, and more importantly, do not kill you when they malfunction, and do not lull you into a false sense of safety nearly as actively as a system literally named "Autopilot".

AP could literally be the same system, not pretend that lane centering is so easy to do, be much more aggressive about disengaging like other manufacturers (see SuperCruise, which literally tracks your eyes to ensure focus is maintained), and be infinitely more palatable an experiment than it currently is

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If it seems I'm being aggressively anti-AP here, it's because I didn't sign up to be a part of this beta, yet I have to drive on the road with these people.

I like that a bored developer can't push updates to the lane guidance in my cars. AP has had regressions that brought back deadly bugs.

I'll take a crusty system that was put through thousands of hours of testing then never "improved" again over that any day.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#206

Post by iancmceachern » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 6:20 AM UTC

fxtentacle wrote: post #187

I avoid new technology, exactly because I'm an engineer. I wonder if that is just me, but when new technology is introduced and hyped, I usually take a quick look at implementations, research, and talks just to get an idea of what the state of the art really is like. As a result, I have become the late adopter among my group of friends because the first iteration of any new technology usually just isn't worth the iss…

I design medical devices and have the exact same opinion. It's the same logic as avoiding the first model year of production when buying a used car.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#207

Post by truncate » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 6:21 AM UTC

throwaway5752 wrote: post #166

There are going to be Autopilot crashes and people should disable it if they uncomfortable with putting their lives in the hands of Tesla's software. I would be. But I see no reason to not believe to not believe what they have on https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport It shows Teslas have much fewer accidents than the average car, and that Teslas with autopilot enabled are substantially safe per mile than with aut…

I do believe autopilot has the potential to be safer than driving manually. But I'm not sure what to take out of that safety report.

(1) Comparison against all other cars in US (and across all states) just introduces lots of sampling bias. Teslas are like much more common in states like CA, than say Tennessee. Tennessee accounts for much more accidents in general than California and that adds up in overall stats, but not in Tesla stats.

(2) What kind of variation do we have in Tesla drivers vs other car drivers. As comment above mentions, Tesla drivers may be more responsible drivers.

(3) What accounts as accident? Minor collisions (fender benders) vs Major collisions. More specifically, I want to know, how does Autopilot react when it encounters something it has never seen before (like the crash in article). Humans can handle things pretty well IMO given they are not way beyond speed-limit, and all kind of random shit happens on road.

(4) Autopilot vs Manual Tesla stats is promising IMO. However, a little more information would be nice to have, like proportion of 1-billion miles logged as autopilot miles.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#208

Post by vincentmarle » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 6:21 AM UTC

fxtentacle wrote: post #187

I avoid new technology, exactly because I'm an engineer. I wonder if that is just me, but when new technology is introduced and hyped, I usually take a quick look at implementations, research, and talks just to get an idea of what the state of the art really is like. As a result, I have become the late adopter among my group of friends because the first iteration of any new technology usually just isn't worth the iss…

> So now I'm afraid to use anything self-driving ^_^

I'm in the same boat but unfortunately you have to share the road with these things so it's hard to completely avoid them. I do find myself avoiding Tesla's on the freeway more and more.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#209

Post by scarejunba » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 6:21 AM UTC

histriosum wrote: post #181

scarejunba wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I like Eyesight. It's pretty cool and I like the emergency braking feature. The warning triggers before the emergency brake quite often spuriously but it's nice. I like it. I think the difference between me and the rest of these guys is that I see it as just an assistive technology and they're trying not to drive. I still have my eyes on the road and everything. It's just there to help, just like I still use my mirro…

I own a 2019 Forrester with EyeSight. While I dont hate it, and I like the adaptive cruise, I'm curious.. How exactly do you easily override the crash detection logic? I've had it slam on the brakes spuriously due to steam from manhole vents, and short of disabling the feature (which cant be done in a way that sticks between starts) I dont know how I would avoid this behavior, particularly easily.

Oh sorry, I meant that part to refer to the lane detection and adaptive cruise braking. Let me clarify.

I haven't had a fake brake yet and I've driven over quite a bit of steam myself so I guess I got lucky.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#210

Post by absherwin » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 6:21 AM UTC

throwaway5752 wrote: post #166

There are going to be Autopilot crashes and people should disable it if they uncomfortable with putting their lives in the hands of Tesla's software. I would be. But I see no reason to not believe to not believe what they have on https://www.tesla.com/VehicleSafetyReport It shows Teslas have much fewer accidents than the average car, and that Teslas with autopilot enabled are substantially safe per mile than with aut…

The report is misleading because AP tends to be used far more on controlled access roads which have fewer crashes per mile. There are other biases too but this alone could easily explain more than the observed 1/3 risk reduction.