Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#121

Post by tspike » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:24 AM UTC

spookthesunset wrote: post #103

m00x wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot > Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the vehicle. Names don't really mean anything, it could have been named anything.…

> Names don't really mean anything, it could have been named anything. Names absolutely have meaning. Why do you think Tesla named it “auto pilot” and not something else?

“Suicide Mode” would be as successful, I’m sure.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#122

Post by spookthesunset » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:25 AM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #79

comex wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is extremely overliteral.

Yeah, so how do you decide where it crosses the line? You can interpret it as a metaphor, or very literally. It seems unreasonable to me to interpret it exactly as literally as necessary to make your argument against Tesla the strongest.

Give me a break dude. Tesla’s marketing department knew exactly what they were doing when they called it “auto pilot”. And it wasn’t because somebody there looked up the “literal meaning” of “auto pilot” and rolled with that (though it certainly provides an easy out for their more... dedicated... fans to help defend the company)

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#123

Post by jacquesm » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:25 AM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #40

salimmadjd wrote: post #12

This is sad and tragic. I remember going with a friend on a Tesla test drive. He was eager to try the Autopilot system. And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off. I think the engineer should have never relied on it. Especially if he had concerns with the system. At the same time, "Autopilot" is misleading and Tesla does own responsibility here. Even…

"And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off." On the one hand, I'm affected by the FUD and will not buy a Tesla, and perhaps also will have schadenfreude to the extent their CEO has misfortunes. On the other hand, to be fair, other driver assistance features are creating problems too. I think it was Subaru I was just reading about having serious probl…

> other driver assistance features are creating problems too. I think it was Subaru I was just reading about having serious problems (and a recall) where automatic braking triggers inappropriately and may cause an accident.

I had a late model C-class Mercedes for a bit and got rid of it for that exact reason. It auto braked twice in conditions that did not warrant it at all (and hard too), the first time causing the car to come very close to skidding into the support posts of a cantilevered bridge, the second time because of a traffic sign in a turn that apparently gave enough of a return to trigger e-braking. Very bad software. According to the company that sold me the car everything was as it should be.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#124

Post by runako » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:26 AM UTC

aYsY4dDQ2NrcNzA wrote: post #85

runako wrote: post #48

I am intrigued by Teslas, and am considering purchasing one. However, I would feel better about the purchase if there was absolutely no autopilot software or hardware on board. Ideally that would mean zero , including non-autopilot builds of all system and control software so there is no chance the car will ever engage autopilot. Is it possible to buy a Tesla completely devoid of autopilot, or is this type of acciden…

Apparently it's a $7,000 option.

That can be enabled remotely: "Full Self-Driving Capability is available for purchase post-delivery, prices are likely to increase over time with new feature releases"

That means the hardware and software are in the vehicles for purchase via the website. Hence my question.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#125

Post by spookthesunset » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:27 AM UTC

danielinoa wrote: post #42

According to this article: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30877577/driver-tesla-mod... "Data from his phone indicates that a mobile game was active during his drive and that his hands were not on the wheel during the six seconds ahead of the crash."

Gotta love how quick Tesla is to throw their customers under the bus using telemetry data the customer cannot access on their own..

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#126

Post by ohazi » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:27 AM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #91

catalogia wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. From what I've seen, the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis,…

"the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis, takes off, flies then lands itself." Is this just being pedantic? If you say the autopilot doesn't land the plane, maybe a pilot would agree for all I know, but "autoland" seems to be a thing, right? When I read about "autoland" sy…

No, this is not pedantic. An autopilot is a complex system that needs full time management. It looks like this [1], and you need to correctly twiddle the dials every few minutes to get the plane to do what you want. It's not a button, it doesn't avoid traffic, and it doesn't know about the broader flight plan. Even fancy autopilots that can follow waypoints and intercept a localizer and autoland and all that - managing them looks more like programming a crappy computer than pressing a button.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot#/media/File%3AFMS_...

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#127

Post by runako » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:28 AM UTC

keanzu wrote: post #88

runako wrote: post #48

I am intrigued by Teslas, and am considering purchasing one. However, I would feel better about the purchase if there was absolutely no autopilot software or hardware on board. Ideally that would mean zero , including non-autopilot builds of all system and control software so there is no chance the car will ever engage autopilot. Is it possible to buy a Tesla completely devoid of autopilot, or is this type of acciden…

It is an extra cost option. Don't specify it and it won't be enabled. The hardware and software are still present in the vehicle, just turned off. There's never been a Tesla incident, that I know of, where the system has turned itself on . Every single crash has been after a deliberate engagement by the driver.

As programmers, we know that the only way to achieve 100% certainty that code will never be executed is for it not to be present at all. I'm specifically asking if that safety feature -- complete absence of autopilot -- is available as an option.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#128

Post by ztjio » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:28 AM UTC

spookthesunset wrote: post #125

danielinoa wrote: post #42

According to this article: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a30877577/driver-tesla-mod... "Data from his phone indicates that a mobile game was active during his drive and that his hands were not on the wheel during the six seconds ahead of the crash."

Gotta love how quick Tesla is to throw their customers under the bus using telemetry data the customer cannot access on their own..

Their customer is perfectly aware of whether he has a video game going on in his hands instead of a steering wheel. No telemetry needed from that perspective.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#129

Post by jacobush » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:28 AM UTC

denkmoon wrote: post #105

Balgair wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> An engineer should know better Maaaaybe? I'm not a hydraulic engineer and won't pretend to be one. So I hire plumbers when things go wrong. If they screw up, I don't tend to blame myself though. I think the same logic would apply to the deceased.

I feel that an engineer in almost any field should understand failsafe vs fail-deadly. Tesla's autopilot is definitely not a failsafe system. While this is somewhat callous, if this engineer had taken that seriously he would still be alive.

Or if Tesla had

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#130

Post by SilasX » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 5:28 AM UTC

catalogia wrote: post #43

m00x wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot > Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the vehicle. Names don't really mean anything, it could have been named anything.…

> Autopilot never meant full automatic control. In a plane context, which was the most common until now, it's only used to keep a trajectory steady, and anything unusual has to be taken care of by a human pilot. From what I've seen, the general public has an inaccurate perspective on airplane autopilot systems. Loads of people think pilots simply push a button then sit back and relax as the plane automatically taxis,…

Yes, the public holds misconceptions about how much the autopilot on a plane does. But some of their beliefs are accurate, and would be dangerous when extended to a car: like how, when the plane AP is engaged, you don’t need sub-second reaction times for possible obstacles. You do need that in a Tesla.