Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#61

Post by Jtsummers » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:21 AM UTC

ww520 wrote: post #33

I have a car with the "autopilot" feature like the Tesla, but they call it adaptive cruise control and lane assist. The adaptive cruise control works pretty well; I guess it only needs to check the radar to see what's in front to slow down. The lane assist is problematic in recognizing different kind of lanes and would steer off course from time to time. I guess the current state of "autopilot" technology is simply n…

Subaru? I gave up on lane assist because of a turn heading home from my old office. It really wanted to drive off that bridge and I didn't trust it to recover properly. It seemed safer to just turn it off after that.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#62

Post by [deleted] » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:22 AM UTC

s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #52

amiga_500 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Auto: short for automatic Pilot: a person who operates the flying controls of an aircraft. Auto. Pilot.

Autopilot is one word and the definition is very strict: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot > An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft, marine craft or spacecraft without constant manual control by a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the vehicle. That's the definition the feature name was based off o…

[deleted]

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#63

Post by salgernon » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:23 AM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #40

salimmadjd wrote: post #12

This is sad and tragic. I remember going with a friend on a Tesla test drive. He was eager to try the Autopilot system. And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off. I think the engineer should have never relied on it. Especially if he had concerns with the system. At the same time, "Autopilot" is misleading and Tesla does own responsibility here. Even…

"And within a few minutes we got freaked out with what seem to us as unpredictable action and we turned it off." On the one hand, I'm affected by the FUD and will not buy a Tesla, and perhaps also will have schadenfreude to the extent their CEO has misfortunes. On the other hand, to be fair, other driver assistance features are creating problems too. I think it was Subaru I was just reading about having serious probl…

I have a Subaru with some sort of "Eye Sight" feature. It is quite handy in maintaining a constant distance from a car in front of you in moderate traffic - but you have to always be ready for someone to cut you off. It tracks the lane markers and rumbles the steering wheel. If a car stops short ahead of you, it beeps and flashes an indicator - I'm usually on the ball enough to hit the brakes myself though, so I don't know if its automatically braking or not.

That being said, there is a place on my commute where going around a curve in one particular spot (southbound highway 17 in Santa Cruz, before the Glenwood Cutoff if anyone is playing at home) where 9 times out of 10 the car thiunks thinks I'm about to drive into a wall, sounds the alarm, and then regains its senses.

So I haven't had it fail in a harmful way but I also don't think I'd ever give it enough rope to hang me with.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#64

Post by perl4ever » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:23 AM UTC

ip26 wrote: post #38

harrisonjackson wrote: post #6

Tesla says autopilot works but that driver should be ready to intervene. This is terrifying - like having a kid riding shotgun that might just reach out and turn the wheel while you are on the highway. Anyone who has driven with autopilot, how quickly might it react to a perceived obstacle? Would it take a hard turn into a median faster than a person could reasonably react if it thought there was something in the roa…

I can't help but think "ready to intervene" would require an even higher level of alertness than just driving the car yourself, as you have to always be prepared for it to do something completely unexpected on a dime- and to notice without the feedback you normally get through the wheel, pedals, etc... Even worse, if you are taking an action the autopilot should have taken but didn't, you are axiomatically already la…

"you have to always be prepared for it to do something completely unexpected on a dime"

This is inherently absurd, even if you remove the last three words. You could write an essay, or a book, on why this is an example of a class of impossible problems. Or, inverting it, it's practically the generic framework of all catastrophes.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#65

Post by eropple » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:23 AM UTC

perl4ever wrote: post #54

eropple wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Words, in general, mean things. "Autopilot" is a word that means things. It does not, most notably mean "at its most generously-described best, full and complete attention the entire time lest it send you into the side of a semi at highway speeds or direct you into a concrete barrier". Tesla does not need any heroes with capes attempting to minimize their literally-not-figuratively-dangerous marketing. They'll do fin…

"It does not mean "full and complete attention the entire time lest it send you into the side of a semi at highway speeds" or "direct you into a concrete barrier"." Presumably "Autopilot" is a reference to aircraft, and they do not fly milliseconds away from concrete. (at least not the vast majority of the time) So if you want to be literal, then the word autopilot shouldn't give you confidence you aren't going to hi…

Frankly, this is disingenuity to the point of mendaciousness. Tesla knew what they were doing. Well-actuallying does not and will not change that.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#66

Post by keanzu » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:24 AM UTC

32gbsd wrote: post #26

Last stat i saw was something along the lines of 3k people dieing in crashes everyday. I personally "almost crash" at least 4 times a day. Driving is a dangerous game.

US: For 2016 specifically, National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) data shows 37,461 people were killed in 34,436 motor vehicle crashes, an average of 102 per day.

According to the World Health Organization, road traffic injuries caused an estimated 1.35 million deaths worldwide in the year 2016. Or ~3700 per day.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#67

Post by kdudhshdjf » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:25 AM UTC

mannykannot wrote: post #41

shiftpgdn wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If human drivers are getting killed in the same spot the same is it still a vehicle saftey problem?

Yes, because responsibility is not a zero-sum game. If the system cannot cope well with sub-optimal roads, it should not be in use wherever one might encounter sub-optimal roads.

Responsibility being a zero sum game is literally what a lot of these conversations and the emerging laws are about. If users are making a mistake often enough to be noticible then the system and its interface are encouraging that behavior. If the autopilot is being used in ill-advised situations then the question becomes why the system wasn't more comprehensible to the user, if it was then they wouldn't have made a bad judgement because they would have understood the limitations of the system. This is just another instance of blaming users for bad design.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#68

Post by amiga_500 » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:25 AM UTC

s_y_n_t_a_x wrote: post #52

amiga_500 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Auto: short for automatic Pilot: a person who operates the flying controls of an aircraft. Auto. Pilot.

Autopilot is one word and the definition is very strict: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autopilot > An autopilot is a system used to control the trajectory of an aircraft, marine craft or spacecraft without constant manual control by a human operator being required. Autopilots do not replace human operators, but instead they assist them in controlling the vehicle. That's the definition the feature name was based off o…

Musk, you and I know what people think auto-pilot on a car does. I really wish these were not on the road.

Pilots engage autopilot and then let the computer do the work. They are not sitting ready at the stick to jump in at the slightest issue in case the system thinks the sun is another plane or some other odd error. My understanding is that the plane flies on it's own for hours. Is that incorrect? Yes for special phases humans can take charge (eg taxiing), but it's clearly demarcated.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#69

Post by 32gbsd » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:27 AM UTC

moneywoes wrote: post #55

32gbsd wrote: post #26

Last stat i saw was something along the lines of 3k people dieing in crashes everyday. I personally "almost crash" at least 4 times a day. Driving is a dangerous game.

How much space do you keep in between other drivers and yourself?

Its not about space. Its about how quickly the space can change from driving along to full on collision if a mistake is made by myself or several hundred other cars.

Re: Apple engineer killed in Tesla crash had previously complained about autopilot

#70

Post by perl4ever » Wed, Feb 12, 2020, 4:27 AM UTC

keanzu wrote: post #56

throwaway724 wrote: post #29

I'm increasingly of the opinion that technology like this will never see broad regulatory approval. I just can't see an argument where any agency will be comfortable with acceptable losses, and I don't see any endgame in which this technology does not result in an infinitesimal, but non-zero amount of fatal errors.

On a regulatory basis true self driving only needs to outperform humans. Humans are good at driving but imperfect we have a nasty tendency to get ourselves into accidents, both fatal and non. My thought was that the public would fear and refuse to use the technology but some brave souls are jumping right in. My opinion: full self driving is only a matter of time. At some point in the future insurance companies will f…

"At some point in the future insurance companies will figure out that self driving is less dangerous than human drivers and start offering cheaper premiums and deductibles to self driving only cars"

Where does the faith in the tech and its future come from though? Wouldn't it be more logical to wait and then say "hey, Geico is offering a 20% discount if I buy a new car with these features, guess they must really make a difference" rather than going around proclaiming how much safer they are in advance?