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Judge Orders Navy to Release USS Thresher Disaster Documents

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Re: Judge Orders Navy to Release USS Thresher Disaster Documents

#11

Post by MurMan »

I was a nuclear-trained operator on a boat of the same vintage as the Thresher. I joined it in 1970 just after it had been retrofitted with SubSafe systems and better operational procedures that came directly from the loss of the Thresher.

I'm convinced that the loss of the Thresher, as tragic as it was, saved a lot of lives.

As for the documents, you need to know that Rickover classified almost everything about the nuclear program. I suspect that kind of thinking still exists and is responsible for the slow release of the document.

Re: Judge Orders Navy to Release USS Thresher Disaster Documents

#12

Post by vonmoltke »

Alupis wrote: post #7
kryogen1c wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Definitely true, but the article is about releasing unclassified documents

> unclassified documents That part seems odd from the article. If they were not classified, seems the FOIA request would have had an easier time getting them released... or they would have been released already. The Navy generates enough paperwork that it's not reasonable to expect all unclassified documents to be released... but these seem to have been a little more closely guarded than that. They are releasing them…

From the wording of the article

> The requested documents – more than 50 years old – should be unclassified and releasable by now under federal declassification rules

...

> “The plaintiff believes this document review is overly complex,” Eatinger said during the hearing. “When we filed this case, the records were in an automatic 50-year review project. We were told it would be complete in May 2019.”

these are (or should be) formerly classified documents. The Navy seems to be dragging its feet with the mandatory declassification review. As Eatinger said, it is well past time that the review should have completed and de- or re-classified as appropriate.

Re: Judge Orders Navy to Release USS Thresher Disaster Documents

#13

Post by i_am_proteus »

The currently-available reports[0-3] are a worthwhile read for anyone interested. The evidence (given the silver braze joint failures on Thresher and other boats) was there before the accident, but nobody connected the dots.

[0]https://www.jag.navy.mil/library/investigations/USS%20THRESH...

[1]https://www.jag.navy.mil/library/investigations/USS%20THRESH...

[2]https://www.jag.navy.mil/library/investigations/USS%20THRESH...

[3]https://www.jag.navy.mil/library/investigations/USS%20THRESH...

Re: Judge Orders Navy to Release USS Thresher Disaster Documents

#14

Post by Someone1234 »

i_am_proteus wrote: post #13

The currently-available reports[0-3] are a worthwhile read for anyone interested. The evidence (given the silver braze joint failures on Thresher and other boats) was there before the accident, but nobody connected the dots. [0] https://www.jag.navy.mil/library/investigations/USS%20THRESH... [1] https://www.jag.navy.mil/library/investigations/USS%20THRESH... [2] https://www.jag.navy.mil/library/investigations/USS%20T…

Assuming the silver braze joints played a role of course:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Thresher_(SSN-593)#Alterna...

Pretty legit theory considering the mysterious lack of evidence of very loud leaking onboard.

PS - Technically it doesn't matter which version of the story is true. The safety improvements that resulted from the accident would have been the same in both cases (since the reactor was still scram-ed, with possible steam restriction, and ballast tanks still faulty).

Re: Judge Orders Navy to Release USS Thresher Disaster Documents

#15

Post by bootycamp »

duxup wrote: post #10
oneepic wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

OP never implied he knew everything.

I think it is important to clarify that "have clearance" here is effectively meaningless all by itself.

I think it's important to clarify that you here are effectively meaningless.

Re: Judge Orders Navy to Release USS Thresher Disaster Documents

#16

Post by kevinskii »

MurMan wrote: post #11

I was a nuclear-trained operator on a boat of the same vintage as the Thresher. I joined it in 1970 just after it had been retrofitted with SubSafe systems and better operational procedures that came directly from the loss of the Thresher. I'm convinced that the loss of the Thresher, as tragic as it was, saved a lot of lives. As for the documents, you need to know that Rickover classified almost everything about the…

I was a sonar tech on a Los Angeles class sub in the 90's, and so much of the training we did was explicitly based on lessons learned from the Thresher and Bonefish disasters. I agree they saved a lot of lives.

Re: Judge Orders Navy to Release USS Thresher Disaster Documents

#17

Post by vosper »

I'm currently reading "Blind Man's Bluff" [0], which I think I found in an HN comment, which, in addition to Thresher, also discusses the loss of the Scorpion. The authors come pretty close to claiming that during the investigation into Scorpion the Naval Ordnance Department covered up a known problem that could cause a torpedo to explode inside the vessel. This information may not have saved the boat (the problem was discovered just days before the accident) but seems to have been deliberately withheld from the investigation (and the documents have mysteriously been destroyed, somehow without leaving an audit trail like they should have).

It's an interesting book, so far.

[0] https://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0089EMLGK

Re: Judge Orders Navy to Release USS Thresher Disaster Documents

#18

Post by rdonohue »

The article refers to the analysis of Bruce Rule. For those of you interested in the loss of Thresher, Scorpion and especially the loss of K-129, I really recommend you read his articles. See

http://www.iusscaa.org/articles/brucerule/

The analysis of the loss of K-129 is especially interesting in that he posits that the SOSUS data shows that it had a "dead mans" capability to launch its missles.

See

http://www.iusscaa.org/articles/brucerule/acoustic_detctions...

Re: Judge Orders Navy to Release USS Thresher Disaster Documents

#19

Post by frankharv »

MurMan wrote: post #11

I was a nuclear-trained operator on a boat of the same vintage as the Thresher. I joined it in 1970 just after it had been retrofitted with SubSafe systems and better operational procedures that came directly from the loss of the Thresher. I'm convinced that the loss of the Thresher, as tragic as it was, saved a lot of lives. As for the documents, you need to know that Rickover classified almost everything about the…

I was involved with Level1 and SubSafe parts as a Machinist in the 80's. First on a Sub Tender then at a Naval Shipyard. I served as Controlled Materials Petty Officer and learned the nuances of material classification. All laymen need to know is that every part of a submarine is engraved with a number that can be traced back to the site where the minerals were mined. This includes every bolt, nut and washer. A very impressive level of accountability. I have dealt with alot of green tags in my day. Generated quite a few as well from manufactured parts. What I wonder is how much the price of a sub increased after SubSafe program was started. From a material point of view the cost was around 3X for roundstock.
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