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Why poor people make poor decisions

thecorrespondent.com

101–110 of 126 posts

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#101

People don't need cash. That's the easy way out for intellectuals. And they sure as shit don't need a casino in their town. They need social infrastructure (families, extended families, social institutions like churches and service organizations), cultural infrastructure, and economic opportunity within this stable social structure. All of which the intellectual class has been helping the financial elites destroy for…

Why do we need churches specifically? Do you think there is something special about a church that couldn't be gained from other group, communal activities? I don't see attention being spent on church helping the community... some churches may spend 10-20% of their efforts helping the community, sure, but why not go to a soup kitchen or animal shelter or litter pick-up? Then 100% of your effort is helping others, not…

In reality the secular communities never materialize and the lower class takes the brunt of the social breakdown.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#102

I am totally open to the idea as espoused in the comments that poverty is not about money but about decisions and mentorship. Can I ask if anyone can actually point to any studies to highlight that? The linked article is very well sourced and I'd like to see sources that point to mentorship programs.

> Can anyone source articles that fit my specific viewpoint instead of the well sourced article that disagrees with my viewpoint? Is that what you're going for?

No; the above article is well-sourced but the comments heavily disagree with it. I'd like for these comments to cite an equally sourced article so I, an undecided reader, can decide for myself what I find more compelling.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#103
post #11

> Poverty is not a lack of character – it’s a lack of cash. No. Poverty is a lack of education and, more importantly, mentorship. I am battling this right now with my next door neighbors, who use HOC, a Maryland social service that basically puts poor people in middle class neighborhoods by subsidizing rent. My neighbors have money. They spend it extremely poorly. It's a single mom with 2 kids. Both kids have iPhones…

Unfortunately, your anecdote and also what I have seen and experienced in my own life is that it often is a lack of character. Saying that is controversial, because it seems to be saying those who are in poverty are less than, but that's not what I mean. What I mean is that character includes a lot of things about a person, including their world view and what things they think are important in life. The truly sad thing I've observed is that poverty is generational because children form so much of their world view and their own character from that of their parents, and it is the parent's lack of character that leads to and keeps them in poverty more than anything.

Poverty is a vicious cycle, and it has different causative factors and outcomes for different people. Inner city poverty and rural poverty share many common things, but are very different situations. I've seen both. I have been broke, but I've never been poor, and the difference largely had to do with my upbringing and my own personal character. To a large degree, my very belief that I could overcome being broke and didn't need to become poor is a component of that very upbringing.

People in poverty feel defeated, that there is nothing that they can do which will resolve their situation. They exist in a concentric sphere of negative feedback loops, where the only dopamine hit they can find to make them feel "okay" even for a little bit is found in illicit substances, meaningless sex, or conspicuous consumption that earns them the adoration of their peers. These are the high points of their life, and yet none of them help to break the cycle, they just reinforce it.

It's not enough to throw money at the problem. Poverty must be arrested, like the putting on of brakes. At a certain point in life... people are basically unsavable themselves and too set in their ways, but they can be convinced to save their children. The only effective program I've ever seen to actually combat the cycle of poverty was based on providing pre-teens and young adults in poverty with funds, education, and resources that their parents could not take advantage of or interfere with. Something as simple as providing thorough financial literacy education and a place where pre-teens could bank and their parents couldn't steal from them was very effective, especially when combined with no-cost after school programs which kept them off the streets and out of abusive and dangerous home situations for further education and mentorship. Unfortunately programs like this are contentious and very very expensive to operate and hard to scale. The program I observed had 40 kids in one neighborhood and took nearly 200 volunteers to pull off and 10 paid staff, plus facilities.

When I look at the situation as a whole, it's obvious to me that one of the single biggest factors in why this has become such a serious issue in the Western world is due to the breakdown of the nuclear family. Single-parent homes aren't in the financial position to spend time focused on their children's mentorship and education in the way that a two working parent home is, simply put. And educational outcomes, life outcomes really, are heavily tied to having parents which value education and good financial literacy and ensure that their children value those things as well, regardless of how many dollars are in their bank account or stuffed in the mattress.

EDIT:

To a large degree, how you think about the poverty problem comes back down to the classical philosophical question of nature vs nurture. The reality has always been that life is a little bit of both. But when it comes to poverty, enough time in those circumstances can effectively destroy someone's mental health and make them incapable of escaping. They become effectively addicted to escapist dopamine rushes and impulses, without any ability to plan for the long term. It has real, serious, negative mental consequences for adults and children both. But children can be saved, adults are often a lost cause. The best thing we can do is focus on breaking the cycle so the next generation of adults is better off than the current generation.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>No. Poverty is a lack of education and, more importantly, mentorship. Yep, you nailed it. A friend of mine was ranting on how the poor people(in Europe) spend their money on iPhones, cigars, alcohol and cable TV instead of saving it. Lately, I realized that poor people spend their money on those things since it's their way of short term escapism from feeling poor and if they were to save it, the amount would be too…

>spend their money on iPhones, cigars, alcohol and cable TV instead of saving it Do you spend your money on those things instead of saving it?

I don't spend money on any of those things, I have lived on way less than most articles like this say is possible my whole life. "But, even though you can be happy like that others can't, they need to indulge!", well shit, maybe that has something to do with their poverty then? Why should I help others indulge when I don't do it myself? Sounds like bullshit to me.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#105
post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The article has referenced very robust empirical evidence demonstrating that cash infusions can significantly increase IQ, lower mental health problems, and lower rates of crime. Your kid-next-door story is great, but doesn't refute any of the above. There are many ways of tackling poverty. Education and mentorship are certainly very valid ways. And so too is expanding the social safety net. I don't know about you, b…

And the study you posted doesn't refute his anecdote. If we always listened to depersonalized studies rather than using the context of a situation, than we will make extremely poor choices of how to handle bad situations like this The OP gives strong analysis for why giving this family money directly doesn't solve any other structural problems

> And the study you posted doesn't refute his anecdote

Sure. Just like all the studies on climate change don't refute my anecdote of "it was really really cold last weekend in my hometown".

If OP is simply giving an anecdote with no strings attached, that's great. Unfortunately, OP's anecdote carries the implication that giving families money, in general, does not solve any problems. Despite robust studies showing otherwise.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#106

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not at all. What's naive is presuming that people in poverty are just as driven and equipped to make good decisions as you are. Whether poverty causes ignorance and complacency or the relationship is reversed (it probably goes both ways and depends on the person) there's no question that a sizable minority, if not the majority, of people in poverty are quite content to live off of the government and spend their days…

It's really amazing to see the mental gymnastics going on here to try and paint the people born into poverty as those with a broken culture, no ambition and being a net drain on society. I was one of those people born into poverty. Your post is remarkably ignorant of the circumstances we faced and dealt with, and why cheap entertainment is used as an escape from the crushing levels of bullshit we had to deal with on…

I don't think your response is fair. Rather, I think you are focused on the feeling of offense and resentment for what you see as a condescending attitude from the parent commenter. But, if as you say, you came from poverty and broke away, surely you can look at the situation objectively and acknowledge that escapism often leads to negative feedback loops in and of itself, and that their commentary on culture is accurate for a significant minority if not a majority of those in poverty.

It's easy to interpret an emotional context in the parent's comment that may not be present. It could absolutely be read as a condescending comment which looks down upon poor people as less than. However, a charitable reading which takes a step back should be able to acknowledge the uncomfortable truth in their statements.

Nobody is saying that the circumstances of poverty are not absolutely soul crushing, it's rather a statement on how people react to those circumstances lead them farther down a dark path rather than into the light, and as poverty becomes generational it forms its own culture. There is absolutely a culture of poverty (technically multiple cultures of poverty) in the US, at the very least.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#107
post #23
post #11

> Poverty is not a lack of character – it’s a lack of cash. No. Poverty is a lack of education and, more importantly, mentorship. I am battling this right now with my next door neighbors, who use HOC, a Maryland social service that basically puts poor people in middle class neighborhoods by subsidizing rent. My neighbors have money. They spend it extremely poorly. It's a single mom with 2 kids. Both kids have iPhones…

Even if it was an insane amount of cash, it'd quickly disappear and end up in the same position or worse. Look at the outcomes of lottery winners and others who come into a sudden windfall. Even when it's not sudden, you have clogs to clogs in 3 generations. I think one of the biggest impacts we could make is to teach financial literacy in school, to everyone. Form and reinforce good habits early on. Demonstrate the…

I have shown my children my bank account quite early (which is not very usual on France where we are very secretive about money) so that

- they know they are financially safe (everyone is taking about money disasters, I wanted to lower their stress)

- they realize that money comes from somewhere (salary) and goes to many places (tax, food, internet,...).

This made them think about spending and fortunately we live in a place where there is no peer pressure on fashionable items.

I think that getting our of poverty requires either a zillion generations (you made the case of teaching the right things at school), or having a determined parent to explain how to get money (education, employment) and keep it (having a lifestyle adapted to what you have).

Unfortunately this is much much easier when you are wealthy.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#108
post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And the study you posted doesn't refute his anecdote. If we always listened to depersonalized studies rather than using the context of a situation, than we will make extremely poor choices of how to handle bad situations like this The OP gives strong analysis for why giving this family money directly doesn't solve any other structural problems

> And the study you posted doesn't refute his anecdote Sure. Just like all the studies on climate change don't refute my anecdote of "it was really really cold last weekend in my hometown" . If OP is simply giving an anecdote with no strings attached, that's great. Unfortunately, OP's anecdote carries the implication that giving families money, in general, does not solve any problems. Despite robust studies showing o…

I think giving money works for some and it's a waste for others. There are countless of poor people who would do better if they had the chance to break the cycle and there are the poors who wouldn't be able to plan the monthly expenses and they'd be hungry at the end of the month no matter how much money you throw at them. The second category needs a different type of help (maybe along with financial). The first category are simply in a never-ending spiral and sometimes it is not even their fault. Tell me how a single mom can afford to raise a child with a minimum wage salary or how a nuclear family can afford the same when one of the bread earners falls prey to a disability and so on.

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree, but I also think there's social cost to not spending your money on status symbols. You will be ostracized by the rich and educated groups for not fitting in, and then how will you acclimate to a higher social sphere? Example[1] [1] https://gizmodo.com/im-buying-an-iphone-because-im-ashamed-o... edit: Ok this obviously isn't black and white, but I'm saying this should be considered among other things.

Depending on which class you're trying to signal as, buying the latest iPhone could do the opposite of what's intended. For the most part class signaling on the easier end (looks, mostly) has more to do with choices than outright spending. It's why a relatively poor college professor on the East coast can still look "upper middle". Their clothes may be a bit worn, some hand-me-downs, some thrifted, but they're the ri…

This is an excellent point.

Teachers in my children's schools make a point to widen their verbal culture in addition to what they teach. Also (if not mostly) so that they send the right signals (which in France is among others your general culture)

Re: Why poor people make poor decisions

#110
post #22
post #11

> Poverty is not a lack of character – it’s a lack of cash. No. Poverty is a lack of education and, more importantly, mentorship. I am battling this right now with my next door neighbors, who use HOC, a Maryland social service that basically puts poor people in middle class neighborhoods by subsidizing rent. My neighbors have money. They spend it extremely poorly. It's a single mom with 2 kids. Both kids have iPhones…

Let's not forget how advertising plays into this mentality. Advertising's sole purpose is to make you feel inferior/incomplete/inadequate without shiny new X. It's blasting at us constantly from every direction. Who is the most susceptible to it, those who are not struggling, or those who are? So they buy shiny new X, which is a bad financial decision.

Advertising doesn't have a sole purpose. One purpose is to make you aware of the existence of a good or service. Another is to persuade you that you would be better off with that good or service than without it. One way of doing that, for some people maybe, is to instill a sense of inadequacy that only the good or service being advertised can cure, but this seems to me to be a small and rather ineffective minority of ads.
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