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The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

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Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#261
post #212

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a close friend who experienced this. Just because the church has no official policy doesn't mean it doesn't happen. People showing up at your door for years when you've repeatedly asked for it to stop happening, including new addresses you move to after asking not to be contacted again (I've witnessed this personally, and it is deeply distressing and invasive), is harassment no matter what the intention behind…

This sounds like a situation where no one can win 100% of the time. Some people who are left alone after leaving the church complain that they're "alienated" by their neighbors, while those whose neighbors try to keep them involved are victims of "invasive harassment". And those who are content don't mention it, so no one hears about them. Any time I've heard of someone wishing not to be contacted, I've seen members…

> This sounds like a situation where no one can win 100% of the time. Some people who are left alone after leaving the church complain that they're "alienated" by their neighbors, while those whose neighbors try to keep them involved are victims of "invasive harassment".

You're getting downvoted because both can be true.

How would you feel if your closest friends and/or family stopped talking to you because of how they voted? Or if they didn't stop talking, if they only talked about how you voted wrong (you know, basically Thanksgiving dinner but more frequently). What people miss is their friends and family. And in the end, do you really want a friendship back if you were only friends because you shared the same religion? That's what these people are saying. I say that as someone who went through it.

As far as the missionary problem, dkarl explained that pretty well.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> when Jesus was not very fond of amassing money I'm guessing you're talking about the moneychangers being thrown out of the temple ? There are examples recorded in the scriptures of tithes and offerings, and also of a people preparing/amassing the relative wealth/supplies (Noah, Joseph, etc). There are multiple levels of preparedness taught in the LDS church. The lowest, the family, being to only have necessary debt…

> and also of a people preparing/amassing the relative wealth/supplies (Noah, Joseph, etc). Matthew 19:24, direct 'quote' from Jesus: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Seems pretty clear. > being to only have necessary debt (e.g. university or a house) I work for a Mormon owned company, this ideology even extends th…

> Matthew 19:24, direct 'quote' from Jesus: "Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God." Seems pretty clear.

People have quoted that single verse a lot, and it's often funny to me when someone says something along the lines of "seems pretty clear" in regards to a single verse, especially one which people aren't sure is even translated correctly.

If we read it in context, in my opinion doesn't align with the implied meaning that you can't get into Heaven 'easily' if you are rich. Like many good teachings, they start with a question (ftr I'll be using the KJV version).

> 15 .. Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Christ then goes on about what people should do to have eternal life, like keep the commandments. Christ said that someone who is simply rich will have a hard time receiving it. Even today in many cultures and economies, we associate wealth with goodness. We often trust more those who have lots of money. We look up to them. The disciples were amazed that a rich person would have a hard time getting in. If we look at other examples (like the widow and her mite), the people often looked down upon the poor. The poor often couldn't worship as the non-poor did.

So it's not the act of being rich, but rather a. what you do with your wealth, and b. if you're asked to give it up, will you? There's example of a young man who was asked to do that in a few verses prior.

For a., you cited the parable of the talents, which is a great addition to this topic. People who are given much, have much expected of them.

But they are using it for members of the church, and non-members. Are they storing money? Sure, but is that inherently bad? Nope. You could store money for a. a rainy day and b. to pay for upcoming things. Does the church do both, they do.

For b., have the LDS members been asked to give up wealth, in order to do good? Yes, they have! At the early days of the church, thousands gave up effectively everything they had. They abandoned their lives and moved across the USA, or across the Atlantic, or other long treks.

> President Brigham Young (1801–77) spoke of the difficulty people face when they accumulate riches: “The worst fear that I have about this people is that they will get rich in this country, forget God and His people, wax fat, and kick themselves out of the Church. … This people will stand mobbing, robbing, poverty, and all manner of persecution, and be true. But my greater fear for them is that they cannot stand wealth” (quoted in James S. Brown, Life of a Pioneer [1971], 122–23).

You quoted my question, but didn't answer why they do it, but simply said that hoarding money is bad. Are they doing it to be bad and watch it be wasted? This reminded me of an interaction in the Book of Mormon, Alma 30:

> 35 Then why sayest thou that we preach unto this people to get gain, when thou, of thyself, knowest that we receive no gain? And now, believest thou that we deceive this people, that acauses such joy in their hearts?

> 36 And Korihor answered him, Yea.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#263
post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

> It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. This is definitely not true. As a Utah native and one who left for my own reasons and still has family in the church, I would say that this statement is completely false. The Mormon church does not practice nor endorse any doctrine relating to shunning or harassment. Just because you left with some personality conflicts and bad terms w…

I live in Utah. When I resigned from the Mormon church the entire ward shunned me and I was ostracized by my family. My home teacher told me that the bishop told the men in the priesthood not to associate with me.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#264
post #242

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's things just as thoughtful that were written in the past 10 years. The things you cited are famous for being famous, like some celebrity of the ages. Just like the Mona Lisa was famous for getting stolen and returned, then this was forgotten about but it remained famous, but now just because it was famous previously.

And how much Plato and Herodotus have you read? Nearly all of Western intellectual history pretty strongly disagrees with your argument.

What a juvenile question.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#265

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A lot of what the Mormon Church teaches is not based on the teachings of Jesus Christ. Mormonism and Christianity are two separate things much like Christianity and Judaism are separate.

For example, Christians and LDS have different answers for these 3 fundamental questions: Who is God? LDS: God was once a man, who became a god There is more than one god, but only one god that we have to do with. Christianity: There is only one God, who is the creator of all other things. What happens when you die? LDS: If you are truly evil, you will go to the bad place. If you are generally ok, you will go to the…

Your example covers a large plurality of Christianity but does not define the umbrella of Christianity.

For the record, Mormons consider themselves Christian, and are considered part of the Christian taxonomy. As an example, the first line of "Mormonism" wiki article says:

> Mormonism is the predominant religious tradition of the Latter Day Saint movement of Restorationist Christianity started by Joseph Smith in Western New York in the 1820s and 30s.[0]

More info at [1].

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mormonism

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Restorationism

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#266
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course that doesn't stop everyone (because not everyone may be aware of that desire). This is only true to the extent that the church is extremely efficient at tracking down ex-members and sharing this information with local congregations and extremely inefficient at remembering that people have requested multiple times with multiple authorities never to be contacted again. People are visited by members of the c…

"...visiting an address given to them by the church" If that person is really an "ex-member" (meaning they had their name removed from the church's records), then this simply could not have happened, at least not in the name of the church. I've seen firsthand what happens to a congregation's records when someone removes their name (no surprise - their name, address, etc are removed from the list, and there's no consp…

> If that person is really an "ex-member" (meaning they had their name removed from the church's records),

This is the issue. The names don't get removed. Everyone that leaves is just "inactive". Tell me you don't see that. Tell me you don't see people talking about how to get them active again. Because I've been to a lot of wards and seen that discussion in every single one. "They are just inactive".

I've told members to their face that I left, and they have responded "oh, you you're inactive?" I guess not attending church for over a decade and having a bad taste in my mouth isn't leaving, it is inactive.

We don't do this in normal society. If you stop showing up to play sports with your friends, you aren't considered a team member anymore. Especially after you tell them "I don't want to be on the team anymore." How would you feel if everyone on that team just kept saying "oh, they're just taking a break. They'll come back." You know, decades after you left...

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#267
Any discussion related to "church" funds makes me go back to a very interesting question: how much is the Catholic church worth today?

I remember a while ago spending a few hours trying to dig some useful info. Of course there's not much online, and estimates range from 100s of B$ to something between 1 and 2 T$. Still credible.

The even more interesting part is how the Catholic church managed to amass this huge wealth over the course of two millenia.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#268
post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Of course that doesn't stop everyone (because not everyone may be aware of that desire). This is only true to the extent that the church is extremely efficient at tracking down ex-members and sharing this information with local congregations and extremely inefficient at remembering that people have requested multiple times with multiple authorities never to be contacted again. People are visited by members of the c…

"...visiting an address given to them by the church" If that person is really an "ex-member" (meaning they had their name removed from the church's records), then this simply could not have happened, at least not in the name of the church. I've seen firsthand what happens to a congregation's records when someone removes their name (no surprise - their name, address, etc are removed from the list, and there's no consp…

In my friend's case, the process of removing her name from the records was something she learned about online in an ex-Mormon support group. Nobody in the church told her about it despite contacting multiple people in the church multiple times to ask to stop getting contacted. When she heard about it, her first reaction was that it was probably an urban legend, since nobody from the church even told her it existed, much less suggested it as the right way to accomplish what she was asking for. She was pleasantly surprised when it turned out to be a legit thing.

How can you keep doubting that this happens consistently and by design? When my friend connected online with other people who left the church, she heard lots of stories identical to hers. They're not crazy people. They're just people who wanted to leave the church.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#269
post #9

That is just what is uncovered in the investment market with one subsidiary. They also own 2% of Florida[0], huge land tracts in Argentina, Oklahoma and elsewhere, and attractive urban real estate in most major metropolises including apartment complexes in PA. They centralize donation collection of tithes and good will offerings such that about 8% stays back at congregations (based on personal observation as the fina…

> For the record I left several years ago, but have many family members still heavily involved. It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. A lot of people are trying to counter this. As an ex-Mormon I do want to share my experience. Not for the people of Hacker News, but because I know this issue is hard to talk about and I want others to know that they aren't alone. I first off,…

Thanks a lot for sharing this. Never had any experience like yours, but I know of a few friends who experienced similar things with the Catholic church.

Re: The vast but little-known fund of the Mormon Church

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It's an organization which does not allow you to leave with your dignity intact. This is definitely not true. As a Utah native and one who left for my own reasons and still has family in the church, I would say that this statement is completely false. The Mormon church does not practice nor endorse any doctrine relating to shunning or harassment. Just because you left with some personality conflicts and bad terms w…

You are both making broad statements about the church and using anecdotes to support those statements. Why should I believe either of you?

I'll support tomrod. Because his experience, though not exact, reflects mine. You can see many others coming out of the woodworks too. People that were taught to hide their feelings because that's the only way they can amend their relationships with their families. Eventually enough anecdotal evidence is just data. I'll give support to tomrod.
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