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Skepticism after Windows 10 search failure

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Re: Skepticism after Windows 10 search failure

#51

Post by makecheck »

mthoms wrote: post #50
makecheck wrote: post #33

The search behaves “as if” it’s using randomly-ordered keys in a random source dictionary, and it’s maddening. If I type what seems to be the same 3 letters a few times in a row, the result is always different: one time it acts like the app isn’t even installed, another time it finds the app (first choice), another time it finds some other random sub-component instead of the app with a weird file extension. Oh, and m…

Maybe the varying results can be explained by your searches being routed to different servers, with each server having slightly different indexes or algorithms? Do you see the same issue when disconnected from the web?

I actually turn off all the annoying web targets, I’m mainly interested in launching apps (which frankly should simplify the problem and make reliable results more likely).

Re: Skepticism after Windows 10 search failure

#52

Post by nocturnial »

Multicomp wrote: post #14

I got multiple people to install voidtools everything and open shell as a result of this bad update. I asked them after we applied the patch if they wanted me to revert the changes, but they refused, stating that having instant local only search and a normal start menu was a dream come true. That is beside the point that if Microsoft can no longer even produce a wimp interface without third-party software needed to g…

I also use O&O shutup. It's portable and needs to be run only once and perhaps after a windows update. Lately, the windows updates doesn't seem to alter the changes I made using shutup.

It's a convenience tool. If you look up everything you can do it all manually.

Re: Skepticism after Windows 10 search failure

#53

Post by mthoms »

chapium wrote: post #45
Zanni wrote: post #5

Of all the things I hate about Windows, unified search is the worst. If I want to search the web, I'll search the web--there's an app for that, the browser. Let me just search my hard drive, please. I didn't experience this bug, but if I had, I'd be furious that I couldn't search my own local files without somehow getting an internet service involved.

What is the alternative? Mac does the exact same with spotlight.

Spotlight search is 100% local unless "Spotlight Suggestions" is enabled. Even then, the search works exactly the same but is augmented with online content (like sports scores, weather, suggested websites, etc) where relevant.

Re: Skepticism after Windows 10 search failure

#54

Post by unlinked_dll »

craftinator wrote: post #37
unlinked_dll wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can't understand why people stick with Windows when they have other options. Gaming, support, decades of technical debt, and familiar user interfaces/workflows for non-technical users.

Gaming: getting a lot better on Linux, at an increasing rate. Steam has put a lot of work into making games available cross platform and for me, everything has "just worked" for the last two years or so. Support: I've never had Windows support be successful. The helpers, wizzards, and online support has misdiagnosed or been unable to fix every issue I've had. For Linux, there are massive, friendly, knowledgeable comm…

Gaming "just works" on windows and has for a lot longer with much better performance. Valve has done great things but they aren't fixing my NVidia driver issues on Ubuntu.

For support/tech debt I'm talking about enterprise. There is some out there but it's not so much for your daily users. FOSS exists for stuff like word, but excel (not your casual spreadsheets, I mean full on enterprise applications hacked together in excel), a business's ERP or CRM interface of choice (although this is mostly in the browser afaiui), the tons of legacy apps that need IE to function... yea. It's changing, but it's not great. And no one cares about mailing lists and online communities for support.

In terms of UI, most graphical shells don't pass the grandma test. The default icons are horrible, the workflow is completely alien to people used to one way of doing things, and that's bad for casual users. Yes they can get over it, but they can also just use windows like they do at school and work.

Basically it comes down to the fact the things average folks use windows for work great and they're familiar with it and need to use it at work or wherever. With linux they have no idea what distros to install, or how to do it on their machines that came with windows and don't have easy ways of moving their existing files to their new Linux box. There's just no incentives to use Linux for the average person.

I say this as an ardent Linux user at home and work. I know how great it is, but I don't pretend that it makes sense for my dad who's been on Windows forever or my mom who's been on Mac forever.

Re: Skepticism after Windows 10 search failure

#55

Post by orev »

blondin wrote: post #29
lentil_soup wrote: post #6

I don't understand. I don't want my start menu to search my files or the internet or be smart in any way, I just want it to show my installed programs or apps or whatever you want to call them. If I want to search my files I have a program for that, if I want to search the internet I open my browser. Why do we have to over complicate things! Who asked for this?

they failed to find a good place for that search, but the feature, itself, is extremely valuable. on the mac, for example, spotlight search is part of things i do on autopilot. that's how they should have presented that search functionality. a keyboard shortcut, big search field in the middle of the screen... cortana shouldn't have been the front focus here... i still use it though. would be sad to see it go! i use i…

Sounds like Launchy

Re: Skepticism after Windows 10 search failure

#57

Post by craftinator »

unlinked_dll wrote: post #54
craftinator wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Gaming: getting a lot better on Linux, at an increasing rate. Steam has put a lot of work into making games available cross platform and for me, everything has "just worked" for the last two years or so. Support: I've never had Windows support be successful. The helpers, wizzards, and online support has misdiagnosed or been unable to fix every issue I've had. For Linux, there are massive, friendly, knowledgeable comm…

Gaming "just works" on windows and has for a lot longer with much better performance. Valve has done great things but they aren't fixing my NVidia driver issues on Ubuntu. For support/tech debt I'm talking about enterprise. There is some out there but it's not so much for your daily users. FOSS exists for stuff like word, but excel (not your casual spreadsheets, I mean full on enterprise applications hacked together…

Agreed. I tend to play games with lower graphical needs, so I feel the effects of lacking Nvidia support less.

Ah, yeah, enterprise level applications are another beast. I'm currently dealing with maintenance and upgrade of legacy VB6 motion control systems at work, and there's just no way any of it can be ported out of Windows (2000).

I somewhat disagree about the Grandma test (at least for going from Windows to Linux; macOS has a very different feel). What do most causal users do with a PC? What I've observed is maybe 60% web browsing, 20% documentation, 20% media. Ubuntu comes with a drop in browser, drop in spreadsheet/text editor, and automatically launched media players. Discoverability is an issue, because none of these applications have exactly the same names, but Ubuntu's Window Key search function is smart enough to find these drop-ins with even vague search terms. With that ability, I'm arguing that the workflow for casual users is very similar, with a minor learning curve for new names and icons.

Windows works great for casual users until: Windows update kicks in, Windows encounters a vague error, Windows unified search stops working (or fails to find files they know are there), or some application won't work for some unknown reason.

Any technology you are familiar with will seem more familiar than any that you aren't; I get that argument. But at the same time, people are capable of learning new things, and they already learned Windows from scratch. It took effort for me to learn how to use Windows, same as other OS's. And with Linux laptops starting to become more of a thing, we're going to see fewer people who's first OS is either Mac or Windows (unfortunately it seems like it's becoming more and more Android or iOS)

Re: Skepticism after Windows 10 search failure

#58

Post by craftinator »

kemotep wrote: post #32
craftinator wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me, Microsoft's PR message has always amounted to "Windows users are either too busy, dumb, disorganized, impatient, or unfamiliar with their systems to know how to do things, so we try to think for them." It was amazing how much more productive and powerful I felt switching to Linux. Like, I could suddenly FIX problems without having to install some sketchy .exe or driver. Can't understand why people stick with W…

I definitely roll my eyes when people say that on Windows everything "just works". I have to fix (or just deal with the fact that I cannot do anything about it) just as many things that break or go wrong with Windows as I do with Linux. Hacking around with the registry is just that. A hack job to roughly get Windows to behave until the next update breaks it. At least on Linux you have the whole system open to you and…

Even after a decade as a Windows power user, touching the registry is absolutely a last resort option; the number of side effects, unintended consequences, and chances of registry corruption are crazy. There's no solid documentation! I'd rather (and have) make changes to the kernel on my Linux box, edit drivers, mess with the boot sequence. You can read about what each thing does, make backups, and like you said, just restore a previous state. So much more straightforward than messing with vague hex values...

Re: Skepticism after Windows 10 search failure

#60

Post by katbyte »

catcalendar wrote: post #46
xkemp wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, maybe, document/file search is a pretty useful and commonly expected feature for a desktop operating system? And extending it to online search is an entirely natural next step? Even if this were a plot against Google, it would simply be bog-standard competition. It has absolutely none of the characteristics of "Embrace, Extend, Extinguish".

I can't believe you'd suggest something as rediculous as users wanting a unified search bar that just gives them what they want regardless of context. History has shown time and time again that users like diversity and would prefer a solution that they can tailor together in a piecemeal fashion after trying all their options.

i don't believe you describe the average computer user.
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