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Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

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Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#51

Post by user5994461 »

anon73044 wrote: post #43
rasz wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sure does expire its usefulness. Try running old phpBB forum, Android 4 phone, or browser from 2011. Software degrades into a point of uselessness.

And yet, Windows XP and IE 5 still have a nonzero market share for some reason.

Windows XP and Vista have a market share of less than 0.1% if we are to believe steam stats. https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/

Either that, or steam doesn't work on these and the missing 0.1% are Windows Server OS. Turns out, software does stop working for real.

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#52

Post by inetknght »

viklove wrote: post #28
alkaline9 wrote: post #3

Perishable software is a huge problem - things keep operating only in dynamic equilibrium, such that they would fall apart as soon as we stop putting energy into fixing flaws. I have been thinking for years that as a society, we need 100-year products. It would be a global good to counteract the local incentives for producing perishable software. However, over time I have realized that there are legitimately unforese…

> such that they would fall apart as soon as we stop putting energy into fixing flaws This is not true. The only reason software needs constant updates is because new features are constantly being added to stay competitive. If you stop adding features, in theory you will eventually run out of bugs to fix as well. The problem is feature creep. Software doesn't "decay," and thus does not need infinite maintenance.

> The only reason software needs constant updates is because new features are constantly being added to stay competitive.

New features... or just a redesign of the UI to make it look "fresh"

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#53

Post by skybrian »

viklove wrote: post #28
alkaline9 wrote: post #3

Perishable software is a huge problem - things keep operating only in dynamic equilibrium, such that they would fall apart as soon as we stop putting energy into fixing flaws. I have been thinking for years that as a society, we need 100-year products. It would be a global good to counteract the local incentives for producing perishable software. However, over time I have realized that there are legitimately unforese…

> such that they would fall apart as soon as we stop putting energy into fixing flaws This is not true. The only reason software needs constant updates is because new features are constantly being added to stay competitive. If you stop adding features, in theory you will eventually run out of bugs to fix as well. The problem is feature creep. Software doesn't "decay," and thus does not need infinite maintenance.

That depends on the abstractions you build on and who's maintaining them. If you have a stable abstraction to build on, it's due to having common standards at the OS and instruction set level, along with device drivers hiding the churn. At the hardware level, suppliers discontinue components all the time. I wonder if most cell phone manufacturers could even build one of their designs from four years ago due to parts that have been discontinued since then?

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#54

Post by bordercases »

DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #46
LeftHandPath wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been harassing my dad for ages over his purchase of a WiFi-enabled LG fridge. Neither of us know why it’s connected - but it is, and it proudly displays a WiFi icon with a backlit LED right above the water dispenser. The only thing you can possibly gain from a WiFi-enabled fridge (it has no voice commands, no screen, etc) is just being monitored and/or hacked. There is literally no benefit to the consumer from h…

> The only thing you can possibly gain from a WiFi-enabled fridge (it has no voice commands, no screen, etc) is just being monitored and/or hacked. There is literally no benefit to the consumer from having WiFi on that device. Does it at least have cameras inside the main cavity so you can see what you're short-of on your phone when you're at the supermarket?

Take a photo before you go mate

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#55

Post by imoverclocked »

inetknght wrote: post #48
winternett wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some instances of software truly need the Internet to run, E.G. Facebook or GTA Online. Many software tools don't need that connection to run, but are heavily embedded with connection dependencies like a calculator app (stable technology). Many of these apps and devices become totally useless if an active connection is not available. This is a bad move companies make all the time to encourage our dependence. The same…

> Some instances of software truly need the Internet to run, E.G. Facebook or GTA Online. No, they don't need the "internet" to run. They just need the services that are currently proprietary.

... unless referring to the highly customized ads provided by the platform.

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#56

Post by inetknght »

imoverclocked wrote: post #55
inetknght wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Some instances of software truly need the Internet to run, E.G. Facebook or GTA Online. No, they don't need the "internet" to run. They just need the services that are currently proprietary.

... unless referring to the highly customized ads provided by the platform.

...which should never be a "requirement"

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#57

Post by ryl00 »

user5994461 wrote: post #51
anon73044 wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And yet, Windows XP and IE 5 still have a nonzero market share for some reason.

Windows XP and Vista have a market share of less than 0.1% if we are to believe steam stats. https://store.steampowered.com/hwsurvey/ Either that, or steam doesn't work on these and the missing 0.1% are Windows Server OS. Turns out, software does stop working for real.

Steam dropped support for XP and Vista last year

https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=1558-AFC...

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#58

Post by ken »

anyonecancode wrote: post #7

Maybe a better analogy isn't milk, but car seats? I was surprised to learn about car seat expiration when I became a parent, but it makes sense -- the materials themselves break down over time, and safety standards and research evolve. I don't think it's too big of a leap to see software in a similar way. Even if the code itself still runs just fine in ten years, likely the context it runs in has long changed.

And yet, there are plenty of products which never expire. Petzl says their plastic and textile products have a lifespan of 10 years, while their metal products (which I regularly trust my life to) never expire.

https://www.petzl.com/US/en/Sport/FAQ/what-is-the-lifetime-o...

There are newer (government or industry) safety standards, as you note, which might reasonably cause one to retire functioning equipment. (For example, retiring dual-action carabiners in favor of triple-action carabiners.) But that's not because there's anything wrong with the equipment. Just because 2020 gear is a bit safer doesn't mean 2010 gear was dangerous. 2010 wasn't that long ago. Those safety standards were already quite good.

Besides, that's not what's causing software like this to need an expiration date. IOT devices where the server gets shut down are not going dark because of some new security research. We as an industry knew full well that using "password" as the password was a terrible practice, even way back in 2010.

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#59

Post by oneplane »

taeric wrote: post #49
oneplane wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is assuming that software is ever written 'correctly', which outside of (semi-) academic exercise is never the case (so far). You can have a program with 1 purpose and no added features experience a variety of critical flaws over a period of 30 years. While there might not be a 'decay' as such, there definitely is new understanding and as such new attack vectors. The same goes for the stuff the software runs on…

Not really. There is literally precedent in this regard. TeX is stable. Very stable. Has it been extended? Yes. And some extensions can be seen as borderline required. But I'm not unconvinced that one of the biggest factors in this is that he tried to make it stable. And showed great restraint in what requirements to go after.

Which TeX? Over the last 10 years, over 20 serious and critical vulnerabilities have been found in various TeX implementations. They were all fixed via... maintenance.

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#60

Post by imoverclocked »

bluGill wrote: post #44
ailideex wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody works for free. I get your beef but the problem is we buy things and want to pay once, if you were willing to pay for your router every month, well heck you could actually just buy a new one every year about already. fancy that.

I want to pay once for something that works as advertised. If I buy a car and the airbags are bad they will fix it. If I buy a device and the software fails I expect it is fixed too. I'm not asking for features, I'm asking for bug fixes, which if you had a perfect text plan would already be fixed.

You can't win at playing that game either:

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22271306

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