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Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

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Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#41
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And they're pretty much wireless speakers... Something that really shouldn't need updates ever. But somehow they require remote updates. :[

They're not 'pretty much wireless speakers', else any Bluetooth or AirPlay speaker would be an equivalent substitute. They're self-meshing wireless routers combined with a media streamer and packaged into a speaker. They also self-cluster / coordinate to support surround sound, grouping, and AirPlay. Complicated stuff. Sucks that they don't provide the option to offload some of that work to a computer or appliance, l…

I get it... Smart TVs with embedded apps are being retired in the same way, but at least when that happens you can use an aux connection to make the device still viable in some sort of way. I use an HDMI wireless connection from my laptop for example, never needed apps to run from my TV since day 1.

I avoid buying most devices that do things that my Laptop and desktop PCs can do these days with function-specific (dumb speakers), because even if worst comes to worst I can always install Linux and keep grinding for the most part.

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#42
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It would be a global good to counteract the local incentives for producing perishable software. What are we talking about here? Asking people to not write bugs?

No, I'm asking you fix your bugs: when you sell software you should set aside money to fix your bugs. Note I said bugs, not add new features, you can charge for features, but if I don't want the feature you should still fix the bug.

Nobody works for free. I get your beef but the problem is we buy things and want to pay once, if you were willing to pay for your router every month, well heck you could actually just buy a new one every year about already. fancy that.

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#43
post #35
post #20

The software doesn't "expire" or "perish". The software isn't gone. The software may go into a state of not getting updates. A lot of the problems outlined in the post have to do with device and solution design decisions rather than in software expiring. This also touches on open source software lifecycle choices. PHP may be updating quicker than it used to but the backwards compatibility is amazing. Angular 9 moving…

It sure does expire its usefulness. Try running old phpBB forum, Android 4 phone, or browser from 2011. Software degrades into a point of uselessness.

And yet, Windows XP and IE 5 still have a nonzero market share for some reason.

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#44
post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I'm asking you fix your bugs: when you sell software you should set aside money to fix your bugs. Note I said bugs, not add new features, you can charge for features, but if I don't want the feature you should still fix the bug.

Nobody works for free. I get your beef but the problem is we buy things and want to pay once, if you were willing to pay for your router every month, well heck you could actually just buy a new one every year about already. fancy that.

I want to pay once for something that works as advertised. If I buy a car and the airbags are bad they will fix it. If I buy a device and the software fails I expect it is fixed too. I'm not asking for features, I'm asking for bug fixes, which if you had a perfect text plan would already be fixed.

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#45
The problem with planning obsolescence in this manner is that different people use their devices differently and have different expectations, both of which make their devices go obsolete at different times.

An ancient phone that hasn't had an OS update in years still has a good shot at being able to handle texts and phone-calls. If that's all a user wants from it, it's not obsolete until it becomes so old it can't talk to their carrier's network. This is the sort of user who might not be afraid of replacing batteries.

Another user might want to do a fair bit with his phone and be just barely satisfied with the quickness of the interface when he first gets his device. A couple of updates, with their associated bloat, might reduce the speed of the interface enough that the phone becomes, as far as this user is concerned, ready for the junkpile.

If you're making the phones these two users are buying, how do you choose an expiration date? If you put it somewhere in between the above two extremes, one user will angrily bin their phone long before the expiration date and place no further trust in such dates, or your brand, while the other user, knowing how long his phones typically last, might not even buy a phone with such a short official lifetime.

Expiration dates are for milk and eggs. What users want is for the makers of the products they're using to commit to meeting their needs for a reasonable time period. People understand that hardware goes obsolete, but are less understanding when companies provide software updates that have so much bloat that devices become progressively less capable and effectively lose features. People get mad, and rightfully so, when companies refuse to sell repair parts and actively sue anyone making third-party parts.

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Some instances of software truly need the Internet to run, E.G. Facebook or GTA Online. Many software tools don't need that connection to run, but are heavily embedded with connection dependencies like a calculator app (stable technology). Many of these apps and devices become totally useless if an active connection is not available. This is a bad move companies make all the time to encourage our dependence. The same…

I’ve been harassing my dad for ages over his purchase of a WiFi-enabled LG fridge. Neither of us know why it’s connected - but it is, and it proudly displays a WiFi icon with a backlit LED right above the water dispenser. The only thing you can possibly gain from a WiFi-enabled fridge (it has no voice commands, no screen, etc) is just being monitored and/or hacked. There is literally no benefit to the consumer from h…

> The only thing you can possibly gain from a WiFi-enabled fridge (it has no voice commands, no screen, etc) is just being monitored and/or hacked. There is literally no benefit to the consumer from having WiFi on that device.

Does it at least have cameras inside the main cavity so you can see what you're short-of on your phone when you're at the supermarket?

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#47
post #45

The problem with planning obsolescence in this manner is that different people use their devices differently and have different expectations, both of which make their devices go obsolete at different times. An ancient phone that hasn't had an OS update in years still has a good shot at being able to handle texts and phone-calls. If that's all a user wants from it, it's not obsolete until it becomes so old it can't ta…

Then perhaps companies should price these devices accordingly to correspond with flawless performance during a pre-specified time period. Right now, if we spend $1,000 on a new XXXYZ Phone, there is no commitment to flawless and essential updates from the company. As they release new devices each year pretty much, it would be in a company's (shareholder-driven) best interests to encourage their user base to upgrade each time a new device is released. This tends to drive the need to intentionally degrade older devices via updates for industry leading companies, by driving annual revenue upwards on a more predictable schedule.

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#48

As time passes the more I think that Stallman was right: Today there is no way I'm buying a device that a company can turn into a paperweight by flipping a switch. Tomorrow I won't probably buy anything where I'm not controlling the software.

Some instances of software truly need the Internet to run, E.G. Facebook or GTA Online. Many software tools don't need that connection to run, but are heavily embedded with connection dependencies like a calculator app (stable technology). Many of these apps and devices become totally useless if an active connection is not available. This is a bad move companies make all the time to encourage our dependence. The same…

> Some instances of software truly need the Internet to run, E.G. Facebook or GTA Online.

No, they don't need the "internet" to run. They just need the services that are currently proprietary.

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#49
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> such that they would fall apart as soon as we stop putting energy into fixing flaws This is not true. The only reason software needs constant updates is because new features are constantly being added to stay competitive. If you stop adding features, in theory you will eventually run out of bugs to fix as well. The problem is feature creep. Software doesn't "decay," and thus does not need infinite maintenance.

That is assuming that software is ever written 'correctly', which outside of (semi-) academic exercise is never the case (so far). You can have a program with 1 purpose and no added features experience a variety of critical flaws over a period of 30 years. While there might not be a 'decay' as such, there definitely is new understanding and as such new attack vectors. The same goes for the stuff the software runs on…

Not really. There is literally precedent in this regard. TeX is stable. Very stable.

Has it been extended? Yes. And some extensions can be seen as borderline required. But I'm not unconvinced that one of the biggest factors in this is that he tried to make it stable. And showed great restraint in what requirements to go after.

Re: Software-dependent devices: do they now need expiration dates?

#50
post #45

The problem with planning obsolescence in this manner is that different people use their devices differently and have different expectations, both of which make their devices go obsolete at different times. An ancient phone that hasn't had an OS update in years still has a good shot at being able to handle texts and phone-calls. If that's all a user wants from it, it's not obsolete until it becomes so old it can't ta…

Then perhaps companies should price these devices accordingly to correspond with flawless performance during a pre-specified time period. Right now, if we spend $1,000 on a new XXXYZ Phone, there is no commitment to flawless and essential updates from the company. As they release new devices each year pretty much, it would be in a company's (shareholder-driven) best interests to encourage their user base to upgrade e…

If a company raises their prices and commits to spending more on software updates, users are going to buy a similarly spec'd phone that's cheaper. Their perceived value of software updates is "free".

It's arguable that many manufacturers already have wide enough profit margins on their devices that they could easily spend more on software, but choose not to specifically for the reasons you mention. Artificially accelerated obsolescence is a key part of many manufacturers' business models.

What needs to happen is for consumers to start looking at devices in terms of cost/lifetime rather than just the up-front cost. This would necessarily involve placing value on repairability and software updates that don't degrade performance. Phone designs are practically runway fashion now though, and seem deliberately designed to frustrate such a shift in consumer sensibilities.

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