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Global warming has begun to make Norway warmer and wetter

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Re: Global warming has begun to make Norway warmer and wetter

#151

Post by IOT_Apprentice »

prostheticvamp wrote: post #30
legitster wrote: post #25

I'm disappointed by the typical Hacker News folks complaining about the presentation format. This isn't the target demographic, and I applaud trying different approaches to convey the seriousness of these issues. The kinds of people who just want a spreadsheet and a PDF report are already bought in on the ideas. While I find the format a bit cinematic for my taste, I can't help but respect their efforts to drive home…

I find the UX undermines the credibility journalists are usually given, earned or not. This looks like a story, or a propaganda piece. I wouldn’t be the first to point out that the medium is the message.

It is told as a story, to engage the reader. It is very well presented. Perhaps you can do better, are you a journalist or a UX designer?

Re: Global warming has begun to make Norway warmer and wetter

#152

Post by thehappypm »

3fe9a03ccd14ca5 wrote: post #117

> The short summary of climate change in Norway is that our country has become one degree Celsius warmer over the past 115 years Honest question, how is 1 degree not in some kind of normal range or within measurement error?

Room temperature is about ~300 Kelvin (and of course 1 degree Celsius is 1 degree Kelvin). Temperatures rising by 1 degree Celsius is about .3% average absolute temperature increase. It's hard to imagine that over 150 years, a change of .3% is particularly significant.

Re: Global warming has begun to make Norway warmer and wetter

#153

Post by sjy »

andrewla wrote: post #51
Swizec wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People react to stories, not data. Anecdotes bring global warming home in a way people can relate. People don’t change their minds if you throw a bunch of data at them. People change their minds if you make them feel.

People are also generally not that easily tricked. If you play up the "bring global warming home with anecdotes" game, then you're equally vulnerable to "hey, sure is cold today, what now, Al Gore?" Nobody will be convinced of anything by this sort of nonsense. Weather is not climate. Even when it supports climate change.

> Nobody will be convinced of anything by this sort of nonsense.

This is clearly false. Anecdotal appeals to emotion convince many people of many things, and the history of the climate change debate so far tends to suggest that appeals to emotion are much more effective than actual science.

Re: Global warming has begun to make Norway warmer and wetter

#154

Post by IOT_Apprentice »

lopmotr wrote: post #80
legitster wrote: post #25

I'm disappointed by the typical Hacker News folks complaining about the presentation format. This isn't the target demographic, and I applaud trying different approaches to convey the seriousness of these issues. The kinds of people who just want a spreadsheet and a PDF report are already bought in on the ideas. While I find the format a bit cinematic for my taste, I can't help but respect their efforts to drive home…

But what is the seriousness of these issues? We're inundated with articles pointing out small unimportant changes and unquantified waffle about serious future changes. But never any actual predictions of global disaster. What's the expected cost in money or lives? Nobody has a clue beyond "catastrophe", whatever that means. I saw one estimate for the economic cost to Canada but it was so low that the citizens could a…

There are actual costs mentioned in the site, which leads me to believe you have not gone through the entire presentation. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Re: Global warming has begun to make Norway warmer and wetter

#155

Post by erichocean »

Ask HN: Can anyone point me to an article debunking this particularly insidious climate denier narrative?

This is how it was given to me:

1. CO2 is a green house gas, but a very weak one. Like, homeopathically weak. We could increase CO2 100x in the atmosphere and it wouldn't change a thing temperature- or climate-wise (other than inducing more plant growth).

2. The reason we see CO2 increases associated with warming in the geological record is because the oceans sequester CO2, and the amount they sequester depends on temperature. As the Sun heats up the Earth, the oceans release CO2 into the atmosphere. As the Sun cools the Earth, the oceans re-sequester the CO2 they previously released. That's why CO2 concentrations are linked in the geological record to temperature.

3. Thus, the Sun is what heats and cools the earth, not CO2. CO2 concentrations in the atmosphere are a bi-product of warming and cooling, not a cause.

Re: Global warming has begun to make Norway warmer and wetter

#156

Post by skybrian »

koheripbal wrote: post #102
deanclatworthy wrote: post #69

What I have found more frustrating than those in denial of climate change lately, is those who deny responsibility. That the real problem is in other countries. India. China. America. Little old X in Europe can't possible be the ones that need to sort it out. Therefore there's no point changing our habits. I feel a little hopeless in these discussions. I have little hope for change. I cannot argue against the fact th…

The only way to combat a Tragedy of the Commons problem is through collective action. Unilateral changes actually have a net negative impact because other parties simply consume more (CO2 in this case).

How do you know there is a negative effect? I can see some people buying more because something is on sale, but that's temporary and overall a smaller market should consume less.

Re: Global warming has begun to make Norway warmer and wetter

#157

Post by roenxi »

deanclatworthy wrote: post #69

What I have found more frustrating than those in denial of climate change lately, is those who deny responsibility. That the real problem is in other countries. India. China. America. Little old X in Europe can't possible be the ones that need to sort it out. Therefore there's no point changing our habits. I feel a little hopeless in these discussions. I have little hope for change. I cannot argue against the fact th…

There is a very harsh implicit truth that humans, when left to do what they think best, choose to live in cities. Anything larger than about knee high is systematically exterminated and anything smaller is fitfully exterminated. Most of the land is covered in concrete. The idea that people need to take responsibility for increased PPM of CO2 when their default contribution is city living has a certain flavor of missing the forest for the trees. That is just how we roll by choice.

The hope that people might choose reduced/more expensive energy availability was always slim to nonexistant. Collective action is not going to fly; the only things that will work are (1) running out of fossil fuels or (2) Renewables/nuclear being a cheaper, better choice.

Re: Global warming has begun to make Norway warmer and wetter

#159

Post by varjag »

CuriousSkeptic wrote: post #100
deanclatworthy wrote: post #69

What I have found more frustrating than those in denial of climate change lately, is those who deny responsibility. That the real problem is in other countries. India. China. America. Little old X in Europe can't possible be the ones that need to sort it out. Therefore there's no point changing our habits. I feel a little hopeless in these discussions. I have little hope for change. I cannot argue against the fact th…

One way to approach this perhaps is to look at emissions per capita. Norway, as an example, is a way bigger offender (or at least has been, haven’t check recent data) than China by this metric. And it _is_ a political problem at this point. You cant really demand change from people around you if you’re not prepared to do the same yourself.

I don't think it has ever been more on emissions per capita than China.

Re: Global warming has begun to make Norway warmer and wetter

#160

Post by e12e »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #115

Assume there is no collective action in the next century. What next? I actually only think things will be done once insurance companies start accounting for costs here.

> Assume there is no collective action in the next century. What next?

Probably World War 3.

What come next after climate havoc, possible nuclear war - who knows.

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