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No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

blog.interviewing.io

451–460 of 646 posts

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#451
This is caused simply and merely by the absurd infringement of freedom of association that prevails nowadays.

The fact is, you're never ever ever going to stop racists and sexists from not hiring people outside their race and sex because of your laws. All that will happen is precisely this: absurd levels of secrecy, which hurt those weakest in society: those just trying to get a job so they can afford to eat and not sleep under a bridge.

Even if they literally say "we don't want to hire you because you're white, and we want to hire an asian", at least you now know it wasn't because of your skills, so you don't lose confidence, and instead know it was just because they were racist assholes. Under the current regime, they're still racist assholes, but you'll never know.

What we need is a bonfire of 90% of the statutes on the books, which will never happen, so this treatment of candidates will continue, while our respective countries wait for others to overtake them.

What we need is a massive renovation, resurgence, and uptake of unions, across the board, not only to remove these matters from statutes and move them into contracts (forced fair by force of numbers), but to enforce an organic defence of workers, everything from a war against noncompetes and similar oppression, through to clauses like "you'll tell our members specifically why you rejected them on interviews, or else you'll really really regret it...".

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#452
post #320

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that it's an automatic red flag. 8 hours? Yeah that's too long. But I would rather do a 2 hour take-home project than a 2 hour whiteboard coding interview. Edit to add: as far as getting paid, nobody expects to get paid for an onsite interview so I wouldn't expect to get paid for a take home project either. As long as it takes the same amount of time that the coding portion of an onsite interview reasonabl…

The problem with one or two hour whiteboard interviews is that they're actually one or two hours, while an inexperienced candidate can spend 8 hours on a take home project that's calibrated above their level, as can a scrupulous candidate who puts in more work than is necessary.

And if they complete the challenge it’s a strong indication that they are a good fit for the role where they may otherwise be presumptuously dismissed for not having an expected level of experience. Id rather hire people who put in effort that expect their tenure in an industry to buy them future jobs.

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#453
post #11

The hiring process is a black box for a reason. The HR department's role is to protect the company first, not the employees, and certainly not prospective employees. If feedback can be interpreted as being discriminatory, or reflective of bad company culture in general, well, word gets around. For much of the time, the reason people don't get the job is that there was someone marginally more qualified/attractive/like…

This. I have done hundreds of interviews, and I used to do a very easy, basic comp sci test. The last question I would ask was, "Tell me about a book, cd or movie that you've read/listened to/watched that was interesting or excited you." The point was to see if the person was engaging with the universe, not to judge their taste or anything else. You'd be surprised how many people get tripped up by this. The worst ans…

> Tell me about a book, cd or movie that you've read/listened to/watched that was interesting or excited you. [...] You'd be surprised how many people get tripped up by this.

Yeah, because they'd rather be shown to freeze up rather than have the conversation go like this:

Them: I actually really liked the album Mouth Moods. It's an album full of remixed songs and mash-ups, kind of like what Weird Al does.

You: Oh? I've never heard of that. Tell me about your favorite song on that album.

Them: Oh... uh.... it's a song called Bustin.

You: Bustin?

Them: Yeah it's... well, it's the song from Ghostbusters but chopped up and remixed.

You: So it's about busting ghosts?

Them: Uh... well... no. It's about how bustin... makes me feel good.

You: I'm sorry? What are you busting that makes you feel good?

Them: Never mind, forget I said anything.

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#454

I'm so disappointed to read comments on this thread to the effect of "There's nothing in it for the company but risk". I once put in about 8 hours on a take home project at a company (well known in these parts) that I had tremendous respect for, only to get an email back with "sorry, not up to par. We need someone with more experience". I asked them for a couple quick points on what I could have done better. I had ze…

I recently interviewed at Google and Facebook. They provided valuable feedback at every stage of the process. It gave me a good impression on the companies culture and the people who work there, and only makes me want to re-apply in the future.

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#455
post #7

I got verbal feedback exactly one time (at Microsoft) during my attempt to land a post-1-year of university internship. I had solved the algorithm in a few minutes, but when trying to code it up, I struggled a fair amount before figuring it out. The feedback I got was "You seem like a smart person, who hasn't done very much coding. That makes you a bad risk. Go practice programming and come back next year". It was in…

> You seem like a smart person, who hasn't done very much coding. That makes you a bad risk, Assuming Microsoft actually measures this stuff, that's kind of surprising to me. I've never placed much weight on being able to write a program on the spot.

It's possible the other guy being interviewed seemed like a smart person and had no trouble with the code. If they had to hire one, they hired the one that was less risky.

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#456

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Germany every single lawyer or HR responsible would tell you not to send any reason at all, just a generic response. This has to do with how law is structured here: giving feedback gives an attack surface to candidates that could sue you for the feedback you gave (because they do not agree with it). So this is it, companies do not do this because they're evil, they do this because nobody wants legal consequences.

I don't understand this. If I select a candidate of three to offer a job, then as long as I'm not discriminating the others for things such as sexuality, gender, age, ect. then the person we feel is the best fit is just that. What we believe is the best candidate - no amount of arguing in a court is going to change that.

I think the problem is your "ect.", in recent years number of various minority groups that might feel discriminated has grown and keep growing. You never know what will be next discriminated minority that you might offend and that will might sue you next year for some seemingly innocent explanation.

Why anyone would anyone take a risk? To make someone feel better?

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#457
If the interview task is objective (come up with an algorithm for this problem and derive its big-O complexity), then feedback is less required, because the candidate knows exactly what skills they should improve. Unfortunately, many people today think objective interview tasks are "brain teasers", "toy problems", "instead ask me how I can add value to business" and so on.

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#458

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I disagree that it's an automatic red flag. 8 hours? Yeah that's too long. But I would rather do a 2 hour take-home project than a 2 hour whiteboard coding interview. Edit to add: as far as getting paid, nobody expects to get paid for an onsite interview so I wouldn't expect to get paid for a take home project either. As long as it takes the same amount of time that the coding portion of an onsite interview reasonabl…

The difference between a take home project and an on site interview is that a take home costs the hiring company nothing, whereas an on site costs them hours of engineer time. With that being true, they can make a lot more candidates do take home tests then on sites for the same cost, meaning it’s a lot less efficient use of a candidates time.

Sorry, but this isn't true. We take a lot of time going over a candidates test. The point of the take home is so that we can get a feel for the candidates level of coding competence, ability to commit to a deadline, ability to read and follow instructions and it also helps to generate questions for an on-site interview. Not bothering to read the test through properly would be a waste of our own time, as we'd not achieve any of those things.

So please, stop making assumptions about companies and take home tests. Unless you've worked for that company in a hiring capacity you have no idea what their process and motivations are.

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a tried and true practice in dating, and it translates well to hiring, which is basically the same thing. Most people, ESPECIALLY people who ask you for feedback, do not want feedback. They want to get in a fight with you. Edit: I don't remember ghosting anyone personally in either setting, but it's happened to me plenty. Getting upset about it just means you're new to the experience.

> Most people, ESPECIALLY people who ask you for feedback, do not want feedback. The data I've seen suggests you're totally wrong about this. I work at a company in the recruiting space. My primary role is interviewing technical candidates, and we provide very detailed feedback to candidates of all levels, regardless of whether or not we move forward with them. People consistently tell us they love the feedback that…

Does your company actually hire programmers directly? I'm a bit confused by what you mean with working at a company in the recruiting space.

Detailed feedback can mean a lot of different things. Recruiters always think they're giving people detailed feedback. That's nothing compared to an honest code review.

Bearing in mind that code reviews often cause tension even in fully employed people, it's hard to imagine they're always well received by job seekers.

Re: No engineer has ever sued because of constructive post-interview feedback

#460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I had a guy at Qualcomm Austin tell me to read Advanced Compiler Design and Implementation by Muchnik. I read it and a few months later I was working for Qualcomm San Diego. I've thought about thanking him but I doubt he'd remember me, it was such a small comment.

Do it anyway. You know if someone you don't remember from an interaction ages ago emailed you to say "Hey, you probably don't remember this, but you once told me $thing, so I took $action, and now I've achieved $outcome. Thanks you for that, it really helped my career!", it'd make you feel great and would probably be the highlight of your day, right?

> Do it anyway.

I'd like to second that. Do it!

A few years ago, through some bizarre corporate scheduling (and turnover) accident I ended up interviewing almost all prospective interns and university hires at $work for a couple of years. I must have talked to a hundred second, third and fourth year students every spring, and at least twenty or thirty other people throughout the year. I definitely don't remember all of them, although I sure wish I did.

Since these were literally people who were still in school, I always gave detailed and constructive ideas for improvement. I always suggested things to read or what projects to look into, even to people who did very well on the interview and ended up being my colleagues. It wasn't some grand gesture -- these were young people who were still in school, so all I had to give were entry-level suggestions (read this chapter in this famous book, try this program, work on your understanding of these concepts) that any experienced professional in my field should be able to give with zero effort.

Lots of these young folks wrote me back after some time (mostly via Linkedin but one of them specifically came at the office to see me when they got hired by a company which had offices in the same building). Every time I see one of these messages I get the happies, even if I have no memory of ever talking to that person.

(Edit: FWIW, I often don't, but I understand the asymmetry here. Lots of us remember the first few interviews of our careers.)

The software industry has fewer and fewer islands of sanity and human decency. If you ended up on one, you should make friends with everyone you can, and if you appreciate something they did for you, you should let them know. The professional climate of our days rewards narcissism, arrogance and pettiness to such a degree that lots of things that would otherwise look tacky are viewed in a very different light. As the great philosopher and musician Sting once put it (maybe he stole it from somewhere though?), at night, a candle's brighter than the sun :-).

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