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Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

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Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#41

Post by rapnie »

forgotmypw wrote: post #40
rapnie wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is one of the reasons I think we'll soon be talking about more than 'just' climate change, as the problem is much bigger still: we are committing planet-wide ecocide. Also maybe more focus on root causes will follow: that we are still promoting unbridled consumerism, and that inequality created an upper class that is trying to maintain the status quo. More focus on the latter is already happening.

We're in a position with a lot of power, but this is obscured from us. When we trace the strings which run from ecocide to ourselves, it is easy to see what changes we need to make.

While this is true, and I agree, this insight has been obvious for at least the last 40 years. Seeing the change is unfortunately very different than bringing the change. I am afraid most people need the emergency at their own doorstep before they are truly willing to act and make sacrifices to their way of living.

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#42

Post by friendly_fren »

CaptArmchair wrote: post #37
Razengan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

News like this keep increasing the overall “background depression”, making it hard to really be happy in this world even if our own lives are perfect. Human society really needs to acknowledge and embrace that we are connected to all life beyond our concrete bubbles.

Okay, this might be a bit meandering stream of consciousness... Feeling bad because entire species go extinct due to our own behavior is an uniquely human experience. It's not something that exists outside of our own human awareness in the broader world. When the last butterfly goes, it's not aware that it was the last of it's kind. It's not even aware of the complexities that caused it and it's kind to vanish. It si…

This reminds me of The Pale Blue Dot by Karl Sagan

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#43

Post by friendly_fren »

nathancahill wrote: post #12

Meanwhile, 3 days ago: https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/the_americas/second-man...

That's not surprising at all. The cartels control Mexico. They stop at nothing for profit. They regularly murder presidental candidates they don't like so they don't get elected. The government is beyond corrupt.

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#44

Post by PavlovsCat »

CaptArmchair wrote: post #37
Razengan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

News like this keep increasing the overall “background depression”, making it hard to really be happy in this world even if our own lives are perfect. Human society really needs to acknowledge and embrace that we are connected to all life beyond our concrete bubbles.

Okay, this might be a bit meandering stream of consciousness... Feeling bad because entire species go extinct due to our own behavior is an uniquely human experience. It's not something that exists outside of our own human awareness in the broader world. When the last butterfly goes, it's not aware that it was the last of it's kind. It's not even aware of the complexities that caused it and it's kind to vanish. It si…

> it's entirely up to us to define how far we are willing to go to find out to what extent

This "we" is just an abstraction, too. In practice it means a powerful person decides they want another private jet, and somewhere down the chain of events that sets in motion, a poor person can't afford a doctor for their child, which subsequently dies. Or a lot of people decide they want this and that gimmick, and people 5 generations down the line don't get to see all sorts of animals and plants, and don't even get to make all sorts of choices we made for them.

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#45

Post by Ensorceled »

organsnyder wrote: post #39
pathseeker wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

organic food won't help with extinction. if we switched to organic food we would have to plow down the remaining rain forest to feed the same number of people we do now

I'd like to see a citation for that. That may be true if we don't use any GMO crops, but GMO doesn't necessarily have to be incompatible with organic practices for fertilizer, pesticides, etc. IANAF, but my understanding is that organic practices are often more labor intensive rather than more land intensive.

Reduced yields per acre due to not using fertilizer, pesticides etc. are the main reason for the increased land usage for the same amount of food produced.

Whether it could be balanced out by a huge reduction in growing corn for HFS, feed and ethanol is a whole 'nother topic.

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#46

Post by ptah »

gravelc wrote: post #33
ptah wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

removing one species typically has a chain effect. EDIT: are you also investigating these chain effects?

Stopping say thrips or aphids eating a horticultural crop somehow removes a species, which then usually has a chain effect? Can you show me some scientific literature where this is typically the case? Personally I don't research these 'chain effects' in depth as it's well outside my area of expertise. There are however many research groups and government agencies looking at ecological impacts of crop protection measu…

when it comes to aphids, their predators like ladybugs would be affected. aphids are not a problem they are a symptom of a problem https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGlqnkE1Id0

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#47

Post by stevehawk »

organsnyder wrote: post #38
jacobush wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm probably too cynical, but I also expect anything agricultural in the USA to be fake, including much of the "organic".

I trust the sourcing of my food as far as I can trust the vendor. We have a CSA (community supported agriculture) share with a local farm; despite them not having organic certification (pretty typical for CSAs in my experience—they'd rather build trust directly than via a third party), I know their produce to be much more sustainable than anything I could buy at a grocery store.

What makes it more sustainable?

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#48

Post by czechdeveloper »

CaptArmchair wrote: post #37
Razengan wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

News like this keep increasing the overall “background depression”, making it hard to really be happy in this world even if our own lives are perfect. Human society really needs to acknowledge and embrace that we are connected to all life beyond our concrete bubbles.

Okay, this might be a bit meandering stream of consciousness... Feeling bad because entire species go extinct due to our own behavior is an uniquely human experience. It's not something that exists outside of our own human awareness in the broader world. When the last butterfly goes, it's not aware that it was the last of it's kind. It's not even aware of the complexities that caused it and it's kind to vanish. It si…

Scientists: we are killing the wildlife, half of it in just 40 past years

You: our attempt at not killing it will be futile because universe dost not care and is always changing

Me: ???

What you write sounds like deep thought, until you realized you just justify inaction to anything because deep thoughts.

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#49

Post by ceejayoz »

gregoryl wrote: post #20
jakear wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A push towards cured meats could help with this... my meat consumption last week was a 4oz pack of prosciutto. Way more tasty than a hunk of beef, and if I continue at that rate for a year I'd consume less than 6kg overall. And it's not like I'd get sick of prosciutto, there are all sorts of cured meats with interesting and unique flavor profiles to choose from.

I'm not gonna go searching, but quite certain cured meats are strongly linked to high cancer risks.

Some cured meats. Stuff that's smoked and preserved with nitrites is problematic. Prosciutto (purely pork, salt, and time) is probably safe.
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