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Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

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Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#31
post #4

I used to mock organic food and it's proponents, there's absolutely no nutritional benefits, but watching the sixth major extinction[0] on Earth unfold, caused by us, it's hard to justify the widespread use of pesticides. We have a responsibility as the sentient beings here to protect all these things, they nourish us, they keep ecosystems and everything we need to survive in balance, small they may be, yet hold so m…

Unfortunately organic labeled food has no guarantees of being better for the ecosystem: https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html

I'm probably too cynical, but I also expect anything agricultural in the USA to be fake, including much of the "organic".

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#32
post #9

Maybe worth noting: we've lost about half of Earth's wildlife in the past 40 years. [1] [1] https://www.worldwildlife.org/press-releases/wwf-report-reve...

News like this keep increasing the overall “background depression”, making it hard to really be happy in this world even if our own lives are perfect.

Human society really needs to acknowledge and embrace that we are connected to all life beyond our concrete bubbles.

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#33
post #25
post #18

I'm part of a group that is developing RNAi-based pesticides [1]. One of the biggest advantages of such a technology (even relative to organic pesticides like Bt toxin) is the ability to target pests in a highly specific manner and avoid non-target organisms such as monarch butterflies and honey bees. There are likely many factors influencing insect population declines, but hopefully this and similar technologies as…

removing one species typically has a chain effect. EDIT: are you also investigating these chain effects?

Stopping say thrips or aphids eating a horticultural crop somehow removes a species, which then usually has a chain effect? Can you show me some scientific literature where this is typically the case?

Personally I don't research these 'chain effects' in depth as it's well outside my area of expertise. There are however many research groups and government agencies looking at ecological impacts of crop protection measures. Some of their presentations are in the link I provided. As scientists, we collaborate on these kinds of things.

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#34
post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

From 1978 to 2018, the human population grew from 4.3 billion people to 7.6 billion people. That's over a 44% increase. The last 2 years alone, the human population increased by 1.2 billion.

My maths tell me, an increase of (absolute) 3.3b from 4.3b to 7.6b is a (relative) change of 76%.

My math tells me that 76% is more than 44%. ;D

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not gonna go searching, but quite certain cured meats are strongly linked to high cancer risks.

That doesn't make the assertion wrong, though, even if a bit ghoulish.

Hah! Excellent point.

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#36
post #3

If you can, visit the Monarch Grove at Natural Bridges State Beach in Santa Cruz. Even though the numbers are down significantly, it is still visibly better than last year, and it's wonderful to stand amidst the Eucalyptus trees and see the butterflies swarming.

Standing in the midst of the butterflies at Natural Bridges some time in the early 90s is truly one of the wonders of my life.

That day, there were easily more than 29k just in that one grove. By staying still long enough, I was covered in butterflies as they flittered about looking for a place to be.

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#37
post #9

Maybe worth noting: we've lost about half of Earth's wildlife in the past 40 years. [1] [1] https://www.worldwildlife.org/press-releases/wwf-report-reve...

News like this keep increasing the overall “background depression”, making it hard to really be happy in this world even if our own lives are perfect. Human society really needs to acknowledge and embrace that we are connected to all life beyond our concrete bubbles.

Okay, this might be a bit meandering stream of consciousness...

Feeling bad because entire species go extinct due to our own behavior is an uniquely human experience. It's not something that exists outside of our own human awareness in the broader world.

When the last butterfly goes, it's not aware that it was the last of it's kind. It's not even aware of the complexities that caused it and it's kind to vanish. It simply dies. End of story.

Now, that butterfly is a part of the Universe. This big thing that just "is", where basic laws of entropy and quantum physics just run their course, unattended, until trillions upon trillions of years from now, all that is left are subatomic particles randomly appearing and disappearing as the last black hole finally evaporates.

There's a paradox at the heart of our human condition. Our awareness has brought us to the apex of the food chain. We are seemingly in control of how we shape the conditions for our own survival. But that sense of rational control is just the veneer on top of behavior, feelings, urges and instincts that we share with other species.

We can imagine how we can reach for the stars, go to other planets and build great machines to do it. We have created morals, ethics, science, religion, nations, lore and legends to put ourselves at the center of things. But there's a dissonance we can never hope to overcome at the heart of our experience: We are not really in control. And that word "control" is just a mental construct that helps us make sense of the world around us.

Whatever you and I, living people, do or do not do, small or big, has an impact. No more, no less. We can't avoid not throwing stones in the pond and causing ripples. Trying to preserve Earth as it exists today, either through technology or through profound policy changes is just as futile is holding your breathe. Our mere existence predicates change, willing or not.

The idea that humanity shouldn't exist is just as futile. Remember, the Universe just "is". It does not care about our existence. And that butterfly doesn't care whether humanity is around or not. The only ones who agonize over the morality of existence are... humans. That's the price we pay for having evolved an acute sense of awareness of the past, present, future and the world around us.

Even though we are in this extinction event, life will still be around long after we are gone. Bacteria sprung into existence even long before Earth's atmosphere contained 21% of oxygen. If we could travel back in time, Earth would be a very alien place to us. And it will be a very alien place once again eons down the line. Maybe it will be just fungi and algae, maybe it will be dense forests of plants and animal life that are nothing like what we know today.

There are more galaxies then there are grains of sands of all beaches on Earth. Even if Earth becomes a barren rock, probability has it that the Universe might be teeming with life. Just at this point, right here, right now, in this corner of the Universe, humans are the only ones agonizing over that question: Are we really alone in our bubble of awareness? Or are there other species who feel and experience what we feel experience? And the vastness of things will never allow us to solve that question, unless by random chance.

None of that is by any means an excuse to sit back and just take the ride. The very paradox that is our human awareness forces us to make decisions that will have an impact, that will cause suffering at one point or another. Either by giving up on consumerism, or by grieving over the loss of biodiversity.

But when we do feel that creeping sense of depression over what we are losing, it's good to remind ourselves that the stories we tell ourselves - including climate change and mass extinctions - hide a far larger, incomprehensible reality in which mental constructs don't carry any particular larger Meaning our morality.

We only control so much after all, it's entirely up to us to define how far we are willing to go to find out to what extent, and what we, humans, are willing to accept as a consequence. Accepting that nothing will ever stay the same anyhow, not even life, humanity, culture or civilization as we know it today on this planet, can help us to find a measure of some comfort and re-frame that journey a bit.

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#38
post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Unfortunately organic labeled food has no guarantees of being better for the ecosystem: https://www.ocf.berkeley.edu/~lhom/organictext.html

I'm probably too cynical, but I also expect anything agricultural in the USA to be fake, including much of the "organic".

I trust the sourcing of my food as far as I can trust the vendor. We have a CSA (community supported agriculture) share with a local farm; despite them not having organic certification (pretty typical for CSAs in my experience—they'd rather build trust directly than via a third party), I know their produce to be much more sustainable than anything I could buy at a grocery store.

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#39

I used to mock organic food and it's proponents, there's absolutely no nutritional benefits, but watching the sixth major extinction[0] on Earth unfold, caused by us, it's hard to justify the widespread use of pesticides. We have a responsibility as the sentient beings here to protect all these things, they nourish us, they keep ecosystems and everything we need to survive in balance, small they may be, yet hold so m…

organic food won't help with extinction. if we switched to organic food we would have to plow down the remaining rain forest to feed the same number of people we do now

I'd like to see a citation for that. That may be true if we don't use any GMO crops, but GMO doesn't necessarily have to be incompatible with organic practices for fertilizer, pesticides, etc. IANAF, but my understanding is that organic practices are often more labor intensive rather than more land intensive.

Re: Just 29k Western Monarch butterflies are left in California

#40
post #22
post #9

Maybe worth noting: we've lost about half of Earth's wildlife in the past 40 years. [1] [1] https://www.worldwildlife.org/press-releases/wwf-report-reve...

This is one of the reasons I think we'll soon be talking about more than 'just' climate change, as the problem is much bigger still: we are committing planet-wide ecocide. Also maybe more focus on root causes will follow: that we are still promoting unbridled consumerism, and that inequality created an upper class that is trying to maintain the status quo. More focus on the latter is already happening.

We're in a position with a lot of power, but this is obscured from us. When we trace the strings which run from ecocide to ourselves, it is easy to see what changes we need to make.
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