Live data from Hacker News

What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

perell.com

151–160 of 238 posts

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#151
post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My proposal would simply be to make it a legal obligation for all companies to provide ownership in the company proportional to salary each year they are employed. Not only that, it's a special type of stock which is paid dividends on profits before external shareholders. This stock should have exclusive premium benefits over any other stock. A lot of thought would need to be put into how to structure this so it coul…

Employees are welcome to use a portion of their salary to purchase a stake in the companies they work for already. Mandating that their employer do that on their behalf (thus decreasing their cash salaries) probably wouldn't go over too well. If fact, its generally considered a poor idea to own shares in the company you work for - if the company takes a downturn, not only do your shares lose value, you're probably al…

[deleted]

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#152

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life where they are important for other people. Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide. But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up.…

They may feel less depressed if there wasn’t a stigma associated with this. On the other hand a lot of people wouldn’t be working if there wasn’t societal pressure on them.

Yes, plenty of people retire without loosing all sense of self worth.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#153
post #142

Let us forget about whether UBI or Negative Income Tax works or not. Let's just say we will implement it by 2025. Who is to decide the amount of that? How will it be decided when living cost is greatly ( or literally ) dependent on property pricing? Hence different location will have different living cost. Food, as in raw material assuming you cook yourself which is the cheapest option, could varies from state or eve…

Who is to decide the amount of that?

Presumably the same people who decide what your taxes are right now.

You are right about housing though.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#154

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how you got that from what I said. There's nothing preventing people from moving out of those areas and getting jobs elsewhere. In fact, there would be a pretty strong incentive to hire those people because they would likely be willing to work for less than incumbent locals, which is pretty much the system we already have in place for many kinds of labor (not to mention outsourcing to cheap labor areas i…

> " There's nothing preventing people from moving out of those areas and getting jobs elsewhere " How about family ties? How about ties to their friends and community? These are human beings you are talking about, not robots. At a time when societal problems relating to atomization are increasingly evident (e.g. https://psmag.com/social-justice/americans-are-staying-as-fa... ), we hardly need to encourage more of it.…

Can you please not post in the flamewar style to HN? It's destructive of the curious conversation we're trying to have here.

All your substantive points can be expressed in the curious style instead. Just be thoughtful, respectful, and open rather than snarky, indignant, and confrontational.

https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#155
post #86
post #62

To me, it's the other way up: without UBI, there is a small number of people who die every year due to not having (sufficient) income. Usually not direct starvation, but exposure-related due to homelessness, or issues such as not being able to afford insulin. There are basically three kinds of response to this: a) they deserve it, all of them b) it's sad, but it's not our problem c) this is not acceptable and somethi…

> without UBI, there is a small number of people who die every year due to not having (sufficient) income If workers spend a few days per year to pay for your ubi that takes away that time of their life. If they spend 1% of their life working for ubi it’s 1% of workers life lost. That’s asking quite a lot.

Conversely, if we take 1% of a return on a capital asset, the owner spent zero hours labor for that, so they've lost none of their life ...

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#157

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> " ...is that really an issue people would have? " Hell, yes. There are a vast number of low-education people with what the HN crowd would call "old fashioned attitudes". From https://archive.is/CCTXs#selection-1205.100-1205.363 : " 'Being a man means supporting your family,' says Mr Davis. 'You’ve got to do whatever it takes so they eat, [or] you’re no man at all.' Being a man, says Mr Redden, means you 'work hard,…

It's not only low-educated people who suffer. Highly educated people like lawyers also suffer from self-doubt and stress, e.g. thinking "there must be something wrong with me since nobody wants to hire me". The "lawyers union" in Denmark asked 127 unemployed lawyers who recently graduated. 65% percent responded that unemployement "to a large degree" negatively affect their everyday lives. Only 3% responded that they…

I think that's because it's not socially acceptable to say that you just need money. You need to say that you want a job, or you sound like a lazy loser and a freeloader. Social media is full of extreme vitriol against unemployed people, and even the people who are supposed to help you can treat you in a rather dehumanizing way. The emotional burden comes from many things, including stress, anxiety, insecurity (UBI would help there), stigma, etc.

EDIT: Also, at least here the unemployment benefits are predicated on actively seeking a job. If you actually go and admit you don't want a job, that can backfire in a situation that sucks to start with.

I was unemployed for nearly 2 years and it was a fucking nightmare. Because I had no idea what would happen to my life next week or next month. It's an unsustainable and extremely hostile situation. Can't make any long term plans, can't start any project that requires investment. The only way out of that situation is to get a job, which is everything you need to focus on, in place of all those interesting and fulfilling free-time activities one could think of doing during a period of true freedom and financial independence.

A steady, guaranteed, stable source of income would've changed it completely. You wouldn't need to deal with the stress of trying to find a way out of a terrible situation.

I don't think most pensioners, for instance, think that they've got into a fucking nightmare of a situation. Sure, some get depressed because suddenly their days aren't filled with the activity and people they're used to. But I think most pensioners are quite content as long as they are healthy, have enough money for comfort, have friends, and are free to find activities for themselves. And yes, some even get something that resembles a job. Maybe volunteer somewhere. It's still a rather different situation compared to being employed, and usually volunteers have only as much responsibility as they volunteer for, and they can pretty much quit or reduce their load any time. Around here, becoming a pensioner is something that is mostly celebrated. You can rest in ease knowing that you've earned your future and no longer need to compete in the rat race.

I can say that I enjoyed the heck out of long summer vacations and time between studies when I had zero pressure to worry about getting a job. I would FIRE if I could. There are so many things I want to do with my life, and 9-5 only gets in the way.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#158
post #145

There is a small chance that someone viewing the comments won't be aware that a presidential candidate named Yang is running on UBI. Please consider not burying my comment.

I assume the Yang Gang is downvoting the comments against UBI

Yes, this is article is very politically timed given the upcoming primaries.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#159
post #8

Is this AI revolution ever going to happen? Siri and Alexa still hear the wrong thing half the time, even when I speak and enunciate very clearly. What jobs have been eliminated by this revolution that I’ve been hearing about for the past decade? The self driving cars are not picking me up and not delivering my packages. I have a better solution than airdropping everyone welfare money so we can laze around all day -…

How do you start a business for a product for which there is no demand? Not as in “didn’t know I wanted it” but as in “can’t pay for it “.

That said, I’m not a fan of UBI. Yes, do tax the hell out of people who made fortunes from their inherited wealth and social connections / status, but use the money to hire people to do something useful and purposeful. E.g., roads, parks, schools, healthcare, basic research.

Maybe we try old fashioned Keynes style policy again, as Reagan / Laffer nonsense seems to have objectively failed for 90+ percent of the population, then maybe we discuss UBI if still needed.

Edit: P.S. I mostly like your comment, otherwise.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#160
post #8

Is this AI revolution ever going to happen? Siri and Alexa still hear the wrong thing half the time, even when I speak and enunciate very clearly. What jobs have been eliminated by this revolution that I’ve been hearing about for the past decade? The self driving cars are not picking me up and not delivering my packages. I have a better solution than airdropping everyone welfare money so we can laze around all day -…

How do you start a business for a product for which there is no demand? Not as in “didn’t know I wanted it” but as in “can’t pay for it “. That said, I’m not a fan of UBI. Yes, do tax the hell out of people who made fortunes from their inherited wealth and social connections / status, but use the money to hire people to do something useful and purposeful. E.g., roads, parks, schools, healthcare, basic research. Maybe…

Also, by “hire people”, I mean directly, for a living wage, NOT outsourcing to billionaires who skim most of the money off the top and pay out minimum wage to a bunch of part time giggers.
Post reply on HN