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What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

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Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#71

Post by pinkfoot »

DennisP wrote: post #60
nightski wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because of how they utilize that money. The poor will spend it, because they need to. The rich invest their money since they do not need it all. Those investments are continuing to grow. Even if you transfer some of that money to the poor, they are spending it where? At Amazon etc...

The money has to come from somewhere. Assuming we're not completely stupid about it, the rich will pay more in new taxes than they'll get back from UBI.

> the rich will pay more in new taxes than they'll get back from UBI.

Except the fortunate rich who own the housing that the UBI beneficiaries will pay for.

I can see UBI making a few people very, very, wealthy.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#72

Post by endtime »

ilammy wrote: post #35
seibelj wrote: post #8

Is this AI revolution ever going to happen? Siri and Alexa still hear the wrong thing half the time, even when I speak and enunciate very clearly. What jobs have been eliminated by this revolution that I’ve been hearing about for the past decade? The self driving cars are not picking me up and not delivering my packages. I have a better solution than airdropping everyone welfare money so we can laze around all day -…

> It’s extremely easy for me to create a tech company that scales to millions of users. That's probably because the public does not have much at stake with a tech company. Especially with all those data leaks which happen regularly and nobody does anything because nobody cares. If a tech business fails or misbehaves, it's probably only founders will be losing money and time. And then can even protect themselves from…

> people at loss who will have to look for a new massagist, a new hairdresser, a new shop, etc.

Oh, the humanity!

> And that's not even touching the subject or running business poorly: damaged joints, botched haircut and poisonous or otherwise unsafe products

Airbnb, Uber, etc. run into safety issues too. Other big tech companies can have privacy issues, and even data integrity issues. I'd much rather find a new barber than have Google or Facebook accidentally delete my account.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#74

Post by tromp »

iso947 wrote: post #45
mdorazio wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your last statement, most proponents of UBI emphasize the "Basic" part of it. As in, it's meant to provide a subsistence level of income that a person could survive on, but not in comfort. I'm personally in favor of that level explicitly not being location-specific so that if you want to live solely on UBI, you have to live in a low cost of living area to do so.

So those in cheap areas with no jobs can never move to the areas with jobs?

They can apply to jobs elsewhere and move closer when hired.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#75

Post by PaulDavisThe1st »

crdrost wrote: post #31

Oh goodness, this thing has only been up for 40 minutes and it's already got 20 comments... I will say that the basic thrust of the article seems to resonate for me, in that I did come to hear of UBI first because of a utopian ideal. In my case, it was tax policy. I was very interested in what sort of tax policy would be agnostic about your family structure, imagining a utopia where the government does not need to kn…

I do not see how a flat tax is any more or less agnostic about family structure. Unless by "flat tax" all you mean "no deductions/credits for particular aspects of family life", which is not even close to what is usually meant by a "flat tax".

"Flat tax" generally means that any income above whatever the standard deduction is (even if that is zero) is taxed at the same rate.

That removes progressivity from the tax, which in turns is a reflection of the fundamental observation about the marginal value of income - the notion that an extra $1000 to someone who earns $20k a year means something very different than an extra $1000 does to someone who makes $20M a year.

So if you're just arguing for "let's stop using the tax code to promote and inhibit certain kinds of behavior", then you should probably say that.

If you're actually arguing for a conventional "flat tax", then I don't see what that has to with either UBI or "family structure".

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#76

Post by Proven »

> UBI Alternatives

He forgot "do nothing".

> Rather, we need a fitting policy framework to guide utopian energy back into mainstream economic thought.

It looks like certain leftists are looking for a way to create a collapse of (what's left of) free markets so that the State can completely take over.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#77

Post by iso947 »

naveen99 wrote: post #16

Imagine a mandatory allowance for your kids... like you are required to feed them and cloth them. Add a requirement to give them some cash too... otherwise the state takes them away for negligence. (Not actually suggesting we do this..., just a shower thought).

We have that in the uk - £20 a week for the first child, £13 each for the rest

You are required to feed clothe them and deliver them to school. If you don’t do that you’ll get social services on your back very quickly and eventually they’d be taken into care.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#78

Post by Ididntdothis »

silvestrov wrote: post #49
RivieraKid wrote: post #12

The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work. The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer. Excessive inequality is bad because the aggregate utility goes down (rich people don't gain much from an additional dollar, so it's more effectively used by a poor person). Transfering cash…

Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life where they are important for other people. Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide. But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up.…

They may feel less depressed if there wasn’t a stigma associated with this. On the other hand a lot of people wouldn’t be working if there wasn’t societal pressure on them.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#79

Post by armitron »

silvestrov wrote: post #49
RivieraKid wrote: post #12

The prevailing view seems to be: robots will take our jobs, therefore we will need UBI, which allows people to live without work. The way I see it, the main problem that UBI is solving is inequality, it's a rich to poor transfer. Excessive inequality is bad because the aggregate utility goes down (rich people don't gain much from an additional dollar, so it's more effectively used by a poor person). Transfering cash…

Food is not enough. People also want a purpose with their life where they are important for other people. Denmark has kind of an UBI: a single mom + one kid, no work for past 20 years, gets more than $2300 per month. Such a person has enough money for food, good apartment, etc. All what UBI wants to provide. But many of these people end up depressed, inactive, feels like a failure, etc. Many just give completely up.…

Serious citation(s) needed rather than personal conjecture / tabloid posts.

Re: What Is the Point of Universal Basic Income?

#80

Post by Ididntdothis »

iso947 wrote: post #45
mdorazio wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To your last statement, most proponents of UBI emphasize the "Basic" part of it. As in, it's meant to provide a subsistence level of income that a person could survive on, but not in comfort. I'm personally in favor of that level explicitly not being location-specific so that if you want to live solely on UBI, you have to live in a low cost of living area to do so.

So those in cheap areas with no jobs can never move to the areas with jobs?

Sounds a little like the Indian reservations.
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