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Educated Fools

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Re: Educated Fools

#161

Post by randomdata »

wisty wrote: post #18

I think this essay is missing a discussion on the theories of what make university graduates better paid. The two main theories are: 1. Human capital. People learn stuff at university which makes them more valuable workers. 2. Credentialism. Universities select (or pass) people who were already going to be valuable. Now let's look at what we might mean by "valuable": 1. You can fool hiring managers into thinking you'…

You forgot the most obvious one:

3. Those who are more able in the workplace also have improved chances of completing higher levels of schooling thanks to their ability (or lack of disability).

I believe this one is validated by the fact that even as more and more people attain a university education, incomes have held stagnant.

Re: Educated Fools

#162

Post by yters »

overgard wrote: post #43

I totally agree with the article, but to me the saddest part of all of this is I'm unconvinced that a college education is actually even that useful. (I say that with a four year CS degree). Most majors, to be blunt, are pretty useless in terms of real world skills. The argument is "they teach you how to think". I don't know how you would even measure that, but it doesn't seem that true, especially since colleges are…

I do say the same thing frequently, but I also fear I am giving into another sort of smugness: someone who has had a special leg up and is denying it. Trying to look like I have less from the degrees than I actually do is maybe also not so great, could possibly be even worse (disincentives people who could really benefit from an appropriate degree).

While CS related knowledge comes up almost never in day to day work and conversation, it is a common background I share with most people at work. We all have the same frame of reference, and can pick up what each other are talking about more easily that way. And perhaps the most useful aspects of our degree have become so second nature to our thinking we do not notice them anymore.

Also, the experience during the degree of working with rarified problems does train my mind to find the underlying concept behind it all, instead of hacking barely working pieces of code together. Or at least helps me feel more shame when I do the latter, and give me some instinct to push for something better.

Re: Educated Fools

#164

Post by shard972 »

realtalk_sp wrote: post #151

I read this and can't help but think that the real fools are the ones buying into the elitism narrative that the far-right has been peddling for years. It's a deliberate red herring exploiting the very human tendency to chafe at any perceived condescension. If people in the US primarily voted the issues (that matter and affect them) instead of on the basis of nonsense, Democrats would win by a landslide. Republican p…

> If people in the US primarily voted the issues (that matter and affect them) instead of on the basis of nonsense, Democrats would win by a landslide.

You can't help see the right as wrong because you can't even manage to represent their opinions in any kind of fair light.

Re: Educated Fools

#165

Post by Consultant32452 »

realtalk_sp wrote: post #151

I read this and can't help but think that the real fools are the ones buying into the elitism narrative that the far-right has been peddling for years. It's a deliberate red herring exploiting the very human tendency to chafe at any perceived condescension. If people in the US primarily voted the issues (that matter and affect them) instead of on the basis of nonsense, Democrats would win by a landslide. Republican p…

I don't understand this predilection for believing that other people can't have genuinely held beliefs and values that are vastly different from our own. I hope we can one day come to understand that it's complete lunacy for Mobile Alabama to force Los Angeles to live by its cultural values or vice versa. But today is apparently not that day.

Re: Educated Fools

#166

Post by almost_usual »

whatsmyusername wrote: post #63

TBH I'm indifferent to the rural working classes plight. I'm LGBT and they've proven time and time again that they aren't my friends (both growing up in flyover country and later after I escaped that wasteland by how they vote and how they treat my brothers and sisters who didn't escape). If they want to vote against our shared interests and suffer the consequences, so be it. Me and mine will keep building without th…

I’m assuming by flyover country you mean pretty much any part of the US that isn’t a major metro? Most of California is red outside of LA and the Bay Area.

Re: Educated Fools

#167

Post by [deleted] »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #165
realtalk_sp wrote: post #151

I read this and can't help but think that the real fools are the ones buying into the elitism narrative that the far-right has been peddling for years. It's a deliberate red herring exploiting the very human tendency to chafe at any perceived condescension. If people in the US primarily voted the issues (that matter and affect them) instead of on the basis of nonsense, Democrats would win by a landslide. Republican p…

I don't understand this predilection for believing that other people can't have genuinely held beliefs and values that are vastly different from our own. I hope we can one day come to understand that it's complete lunacy for Mobile Alabama to force Los Angeles to live by its cultural values or vice versa. But today is apparently not that day.

[deleted]

Re: Educated Fools

#168

Post by tacitusarc »

IIAOPSW wrote: post #146

I'm going to break slightly with the authors opinion here and say we do solve every problem with "be more like us" but that doesn't always mean college. Other solutions involve "why don't you just move", better mass transit / fewer cars, some form of retraining (not college per se) etc. There's a whole basket of diverging "elite" values such that even if they stopped telling people to go to college tomorrow they woul…

Part of the problem is the suggestion that they need help in the first place. So what Joe the garbage truck driver didn't go to college? So what he has a small house in a kinda shitty neighborhood? Maybe he's doing the best he can and maybe he actually has a pretty happy life. The working class doesn't need pity and suggestions to move or go get a degree. Here's something novel: why are the roads in nice neighborhoods always better repaired than roads in poor neighborhoods? Instead of telling the working class to move or get college degrees, maybe advocate for equality in road repair.

Re: Educated Fools

#169

Post by realtalk_sp »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #165
realtalk_sp wrote: post #151

I read this and can't help but think that the real fools are the ones buying into the elitism narrative that the far-right has been peddling for years. It's a deliberate red herring exploiting the very human tendency to chafe at any perceived condescension. If people in the US primarily voted the issues (that matter and affect them) instead of on the basis of nonsense, Democrats would win by a landslide. Republican p…

I don't understand this predilection for believing that other people can't have genuinely held beliefs and values that are vastly different from our own. I hope we can one day come to understand that it's complete lunacy for Mobile Alabama to force Los Angeles to live by its cultural values or vice versa. But today is apparently not that day.

I never argued that the people themselves don't genuinely hold different beliefs about gun rights, abortion, religion, LGBT, etc.

I meant two things: 1. in terms of their effect on peoples' lives, these issues pale in comparison to certain other ones AND 2. Republican politicians are using these highly emotionally-charged social issues to induce people to vote against their own interests on dimensions of governance that would meaningfully impact their quality of life.

Re: Educated Fools

#170

Post by zhdc1 »

jariel wrote: post #149

In Germany, like most places where 'University is free' - they generally have strict rules on the numbers that can attend, so those with proper Uni degrees hover around 25%. (FYI in America and Canada 'post secondary' can mean something broader). But they have something called 'Mittelstand' or middle industry - vast numbers of mid-sized firms that employ zillions of people, in particular, the take take in apprentices…

Germany also has an issue with its small and medium size enterprises being increasingly outcompeted, relatively weak demography, and a rural to urban hallowing that somewhat mirrors are what is taking place in China and in the states.

I don't want to make this argument, but I get the impression that the German economy looks somewhat similar to the American economy in the 60s and 70s, but has managed to persist longer thanks to its unique position in the EU and some very real competitive advantages, such as the quality of vocational training you mentioned.

I'm worried though that these have only delayed the transition to what you currently see in the US and UK. I'm a big fan of vocational training - most of my extended family came up in the trades - but I don't know if it's the pancia that both parties in the states seem to think it is, or if the German model is feasible or even preferrable in this context.

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