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Show HN: I made a site that helps you find LGBT+ Travel Rankings and Gay Laws

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Re: Show HN: I made a site that helps you find LGBT+ Travel Rankings and Gay Laws

#111

Post by glennpratt »

nec4b wrote: post #109
danbolt wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do I determine what is “ideology” and what isn’t? If a person is LGBT, is their behaviour considered ideology? When does something simply being LGBT also become ideology?

I will try with an analogy, please don't take it literally. Communist party (the ideology) stipulates that it represents workers (people) and that every worker is inherently on its side. But being a worker in reality does not mean one is a communist and banning the communist party does not mean banning the workers.

I feel like you are trying to paint a neat, ethical line where none exists.

Re: Show HN: I made a site that helps you find LGBT+ Travel Rankings and Gay Laws

#112

Post by danbolt »

nec4b wrote: post #109
danbolt wrote: post #107

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How do I determine what is “ideology” and what isn’t? If a person is LGBT, is their behaviour considered ideology? When does something simply being LGBT also become ideology?

I will try with an analogy, please don't take it literally. Communist party (the ideology) stipulates that it represents workers (people) and that every worker is inherently on its side. But being a worker in reality does not mean one is a communist and banning the communist party does not mean banning the workers.

I think I understand your analogy. An individual LGBT person might not feel represented by elements of LGBT activism in the same way a worker might not about communism. I'm having trouble extrapolating that to what is/isn't ideology though. Could you explain a little more?

For example, imagine that two people of the same sex meet in university. They start dating and eventually move in together after a year or two. Fast forward and they've been cohabiting for a decade. They share bills and go out to dinner and bicker about whose turn it is to do the laundry. Would labelling them as a couple be considered LGBT ideology? How about considering them common-law?

It strikes me that "LGBT ideology" is a label you get to put on behaviours or traits when you decide you don't like them; otherwise it's "simply LGBT". I think I need more reasoning whether something shouldn't be allowed or not.

Re: Show HN: I made a site that helps you find LGBT+ Travel Rankings and Gay Laws

#113

Post by detaro »

nec4b wrote: post #108
rewq4321 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Totally different meaning. If people aren't allowed to express who they are or their beliefs for fear of literally being bricked or kicked in the face [0][1] then you're banning LGBT people (and obviously "LGBT ideology" too). [0] https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2019/07/bigots-attacks-pride-mar... [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-l67aCX0vA

I agree with you that if you ban LGBT people your are also probably banning LGBT ideology. But banning LGBT ideology does not mean banning LGBT people. Being a LGBT person does not mean that you automatically subscribe to an LGBT ideology.

This sounds awfully like "as long as you don't do anything visible you can be LGBT", with "LGBT ideology" being things like "you should be allowed to be recognizably LGBT in public", "you should be allowed to talk about being LGBT", ...

At least that's how it usually goes when this argument comes out.

Re: Show HN: I made a site that helps you find LGBT+ Travel Rankings and Gay Laws

#114

Post by zozbot234 »

danbolt wrote: post #112
nec4b wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will try with an analogy, please don't take it literally. Communist party (the ideology) stipulates that it represents workers (people) and that every worker is inherently on its side. But being a worker in reality does not mean one is a communist and banning the communist party does not mean banning the workers.

I think I understand your analogy. An individual LGBT person might not feel represented by elements of LGBT activism in the same way a worker might not about communism. I'm having trouble extrapolating that to what is/isn't ideology though. Could you explain a little more? For example, imagine that two people of the same sex meet in university. They start dating and eventually move in together after a year or two. Fa…

> For example, imagine that two people of the same sex meet in university. They start dating and eventually move in together after a year or two. Fast forward and they've been cohabiting for a decade. They share bills and go out to dinner and bicker about whose turn it is to do the laundry. Would labelling them as a couple be considered LGBT ideology?

You mean, like, roommates? It depends what you mean by 'a couple', obviously. People who live together are not necessarily involved in any kind of intimate relationship. What if it was three people who just hang out informally for a while ("date") and then move in together to share their rent/bills/chores?

Re: Show HN: I made a site that helps you find LGBT+ Travel Rankings and Gay Laws

#115

Post by danbolt »

zozbot234 wrote: post #114
danbolt wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think I understand your analogy. An individual LGBT person might not feel represented by elements of LGBT activism in the same way a worker might not about communism. I'm having trouble extrapolating that to what is/isn't ideology though. Could you explain a little more? For example, imagine that two people of the same sex meet in university. They start dating and eventually move in together after a year or two. Fa…

> For example, imagine that two people of the same sex meet in university. They start dating and eventually move in together after a year or two. Fast forward and they've been cohabiting for a decade. They share bills and go out to dinner and bicker about whose turn it is to do the laundry. Would labelling them as a couple be considered LGBT ideology? You mean, like, roommates? It depends what you mean by 'a couple',…

Sorry if my wording was confusing; when I wrote "They start dating" I meant to imply a romantic relationship and not friends or roommates.

I didn't mean to conflate the two, but my writing was meant to ask the earlier commenter to label or identify what they thought of the behaviours mentioned. That's a mark on my writing if the reader inferred the scenario as roommates.

Re: Show HN: I made a site that helps you find LGBT+ Travel Rankings and Gay Laws

#116

Post by zozbot234 »

danbolt wrote: post #115
zozbot234 wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For example, imagine that two people of the same sex meet in university. They start dating and eventually move in together after a year or two. Fast forward and they've been cohabiting for a decade. They share bills and go out to dinner and bicker about whose turn it is to do the laundry. Would labelling them as a couple be considered LGBT ideology? You mean, like, roommates? It depends what you mean by 'a couple',…

Sorry if my wording was confusing; when I wrote "They start dating" I meant to imply a romantic relationship and not friends or roommates. I didn't mean to conflate the two, but my writing was meant to ask the earlier commenter to label or identify what they thought of the behaviours mentioned. That's a mark on my writing if the reader inferred the scenario as roommates.

The point is that by restricting your scenario to "a romantic relationship and not friends or roommates", you're already going way beyond the identification of 'behaviors', and deep into what some people might call ideology. Unless you specifically look at what people do in the privacy of their bedrooms, the behaviors involved in "dating" vs. "hanging out" are pretty much indistinguishable. And LGBT+ folks are very much a minority, so "roommates" is going to be the typical case by a large margin.

Re: Show HN: I made a site that helps you find LGBT+ Travel Rankings and Gay Laws

#117

Post by danbolt »

detaro wrote: post #113
nec4b wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that if you ban LGBT people your are also probably banning LGBT ideology. But banning LGBT ideology does not mean banning LGBT people. Being a LGBT person does not mean that you automatically subscribe to an LGBT ideology.

This sounds awfully like "as long as you don't do anything visible you can be LGBT", with "LGBT ideology" being things like "you should be allowed to be recognizably LGBT in public", "you should be allowed to talk about being LGBT", ... At least that's how it usually goes when this argument comes out.

I agree. This strikes me as a Motte-and-bailey attitude towards LGBT acceptance in society.

Re: Show HN: I made a site that helps you find LGBT+ Travel Rankings and Gay Laws

#118

Post by nec4b »

danbolt wrote: post #112
nec4b wrote: post #109

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I will try with an analogy, please don't take it literally. Communist party (the ideology) stipulates that it represents workers (people) and that every worker is inherently on its side. But being a worker in reality does not mean one is a communist and banning the communist party does not mean banning the workers.

I think I understand your analogy. An individual LGBT person might not feel represented by elements of LGBT activism in the same way a worker might not about communism. I'm having trouble extrapolating that to what is/isn't ideology though. Could you explain a little more? For example, imagine that two people of the same sex meet in university. They start dating and eventually move in together after a year or two. Fa…

I really don't think the vast majority of people in western societies are bothered by two same sex people living together in a relationship. That is not what the term LGBT ideology encompasses. The ideology part is about having a set of ideas that are not allowed to be challenged and spreading those ideas with zealotry and force on to others. Things like forced pronouns, harassing doctors for not wanting to mutilating kids who are not even in puberty, men using women's toilets, man competing against women in sports,..., while being very nasty towards people who disagree with those ideas.

Re: Show HN: I made a site that helps you find LGBT+ Travel Rankings and Gay Laws

#119

Post by nec4b »

detaro wrote: post #113
nec4b wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you that if you ban LGBT people your are also probably banning LGBT ideology. But banning LGBT ideology does not mean banning LGBT people. Being a LGBT person does not mean that you automatically subscribe to an LGBT ideology.

This sounds awfully like "as long as you don't do anything visible you can be LGBT", with "LGBT ideology" being things like "you should be allowed to be recognizably LGBT in public", "you should be allowed to talk about being LGBT", ... At least that's how it usually goes when this argument comes out.

Please don't ascribe ulterior meanings to my words. What I wrote was pretty unambiguous and what you wrote does not follow from my comment.

Re: Show HN: I made a site that helps you find LGBT+ Travel Rankings and Gay Laws

#120

Post by AgentME »

apta wrote: post #104
notahacker wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes and no. On the one hand a gay tourist is considerably less likely to be on the receiving end of homophobic beatings in Singapore than many liberal European countries, and won't have any issue finding the gay scene. On the other hand its a country where only a fifth of the population think gay sex isn't wrong and the unenforced law against gay sex still has majority public support.

> On the other hand its a country where only a fifth of the population think gay sex isn't wrong and the unenforced law against gay sex still has majority public support. So? Aren't people entitled to their own views and opinions.

I guess in some sense bigotry is legally allowed, but it is pretty relevant for someone looking for a place where they'd be accepted and fit in.
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