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Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

ft.com

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Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#121

Post by cryptica »

legitster wrote: post #101
ekianjo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody goes to jail for "lobbying" in the US while it is clearly about the same thing as bribery. Just a legal form of it.

This is patently untrue. A lobbyist is just anybody who meets with an elected official on behalf of a group. There are perfectly legitimate lobbyists, and many depending on the group they may even be volunteers. It just so happens that the lobbyists that get the most attention are those that represent the most powerful groups. But equating it with bribery is completely misleading.

>> There are perfectly legitimate lobbyists

This is BS. Lobbyists serve the companies they work for and nobody else. There have been many cases of lobbyists getting fired for not sticking to the corporate agenda even on small matters. It's institutionalized corruption.

The hypothetical 'legitimate lobbyists' are 'low performers' and they don't stick around very long. Either they will be underpaid and quit or they'll be fired outright.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#122

Post by cryptica »

manfredo wrote: post #86
ekianjo wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody goes to jail for "lobbying" in the US while it is clearly about the same thing as bribery. Just a legal form of it.

While lobbyists have sometimes bribed officials through gifts and perks, which is illegal, lobbying is not bribery. Say you're interesting in promoting renewable energy. You and like minded people put together resources to promote renewable energy to politicians, explaining its benefits. This activity is lobbying for renewable energy.

But how many politicians end up getting huge salaries from these so-called 'think tanks' after they finish their terms?

How is this different from receiving a 'gift'? It's extremely reductive to even mention gifts as bribery at this stage because we are far beyond that primitive level of interaction.

This unspoken agreement between politicians and think thanks is exactly the same as bribery. They're bribing politicians with (at best) implicit promises future money.

This legal approach to bribery is not only evil but it's also extremely hypocritical. Usually, when people do evil things, at least they know it's evil and many of them will hear a voice at the back of their heads telling them that they should stop doing it.

Now, the only voice at the back of politicians' heads is telling them "It's OK, it's not a gift/bribe, it's just a job offer given based on my skills" - Nevermind that the salary offered is 10x what they're getting now; that's just an irrelevant detail. A think tank's promises and its reputation for paying big are its currency; the result is exactly the same as bribing with gifts or money.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#124

Post by Findeton »

Iv wrote: post #119
philprx wrote: post #106

Oh, very surprising, this news comes at the exact right timing for Boeing during the 737 max debacle ;-)

Reminds me of an old story: https://www.economist.com/special-report/2003/06/12/airbuss-... Maybe people here have never heard the EU point of view on it, so let me sum it up: Airbus bribed Saudi officials in the 90s to get a 6 billion contracts. It was "whistleblowed" by this then little-known agency: NSA and in the end Boeing got the contract. It triggered a EU investigation in what was then called ECHELON. A Cold-…

I agree with all you've said, including that probably the US bribes (or threatens) as much or more than the EU. But being even more cynical about it, this is just the way the free market sneaks in, including these big government deals: one party has money, the other party has power. Say Airbus bribes Saudi Arabia Officials. The officials don't have that much money, but they surely have power, and Airbus doesn't have the power to decide on the deal but they surely have some cash. A transaction is agreed and done and both parties reach a win-win situation. Of course the losing part is the citizens, but a capitalistic view of this is that corruption is just anything that breaks the fairy tale idea that the people that work in government seek the interests of the general public and not their very own private interests. Citizens were already on the losing side when the government forced them to pay taxes.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#125

Post by raverbashing »

spenczar5 wrote: post #45
yalogin wrote: post #22

Every company doles out bribes. In many countries bribery is the way to go. Things don’t happen without it. They just find creative ways to make it legal that’s all.

“Every company” is obviously hyperbole. My local deli doesn’t bribe anybody. What do you really mean - every $1bn+ revenue aerospace firm?

Every company that sells to governments in "low compliance" (let's put it this way) places.

Do you think Mr General/President/Leader of 3rd world country looks at merit/quality only?

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#126

Post by gdy »

hogFeast wrote: post #15

Thank god. A particularly nasty aspect of this story, alluded to at the bottom but not made explicit, is that Airbus was taking massive export credits (in the UK, they got the lion's share of the budget). It was only in the UK that Airbus was required to actually required to produce documentation about the customer, and the scheme was only uncovered when someone at UKEF realised that Airbus wasn't doing this and the…

"Airbus is everything that is wrong with the corporate world."

But it makes planes that don't crash like Boeings.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#127

Post by ptidhomme »

Findeton wrote: post #124
Iv wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reminds me of an old story: https://www.economist.com/special-report/2003/06/12/airbuss-... Maybe people here have never heard the EU point of view on it, so let me sum it up: Airbus bribed Saudi officials in the 90s to get a 6 billion contracts. It was "whistleblowed" by this then little-known agency: NSA and in the end Boeing got the contract. It triggered a EU investigation in what was then called ECHELON. A Cold-…

I agree with all you've said, including that probably the US bribes (or threatens) as much or more than the EU. But being even more cynical about it, this is just the way the free market sneaks in, including these big government deals: one party has money, the other party has power. Say Airbus bribes Saudi Arabia Officials. The officials don't have that much money, but they surely have power, and Airbus doesn't have…

Well Airbus making deals still is in the overall interest of European citizens rather than Boeing making deals.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#128

Post by gdy »

jariel wrote: post #71
KarlKemp wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Corruption has already massively improved since the heydays of the 60s and 70s, so I doubt your cynicism. But of all the industries, big planes should be among the easiest to clean up: there’s only two participants in this prisoners‘ dilemma, and they are both, theoretically, under the purview of rigorous enforcement in countries governed by law.

"there’s only two participants in this prisoners‘ dilemma, and they are both, theoretically, under the purview of rigorous enforcement in countries governed by law." What? No. There are 1000's of participants, and few of them are under the purview of the law. 1. Someone wants access to a Malaysian Air exec at some hotel event. Bribe someone for info. 2. Someone is overseeing the aircraft regulatory body, their findin…

"If you're IKEA and want to open a store in Moscow, you will pay x% of your revenue to a local 'businessman/thug'. If not - no store! So you wait a decade and realize you have no choice, and so you just pay the appropriate tributes."

A link to the source would be appropriate.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#129

Post by ptidhomme »

philprx wrote: post #106

Oh, very surprising, this news comes at the exact right timing for Boeing during the 737 max debacle ;-)

Likewise, the WTO dispute was unsurprisingly fired again shortly after the MAX grounding. [1] for example, on 14/102019.

[1] https://mobile.reuters.com/article/amp/idUSKBN1WT0T2

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