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Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

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11–20 of 251 posts

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#11
post #3

In Canada SNC Lavalin same things. This is not an easy thing though: the countries in which bribes are paid are run by corrupt people who expect kickbacks as part of doing business, and there's no other way about it. If the West wants to play morally superior on this - then 100% of Airbus, Boeing, SNC, Halliburton and massive industrials will full-on go out of business. This issue is not part of the current round of…

I don't know who downvoted this but come on. jariel has a point and it's not going away because we bury our heads in the sand.

At a basic level I think it falls down to fundamentally different conceptions of what is a "business" versus individuals, families, organizations of many types. What we call "lie" and "theft" in the West might be innocuous or praised in the East (think "great poker player", "bold move"), and no regulation will make each side suddenly re-order their hierarchy of values, and the centennial legal system that surely goes with it.

I don't know where the solution lies, if any, but that's one hell of a cultural clash.

That is not the same as more coincidental, opportunistic bribery the likes of dictatorships or local lords, the chaos tax. That's more of a temporary friction that can (and should) be dealt with more swiftly — had we the global political will to do so. It's nowhere near as hard a problem as the above cultural matter.

Edit: self-censored a bad initial

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#12
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I question the premise. The US has the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act of 1977 has already made it illegal to make payments to foreign government officials to assist in obtaining or retaining business. Somehow, Boeing, SNC, Halliburton, and many other massive industrials have survived so far.

"Don't spend your money bribing foreign governments, keep that money for lobbying in your own country. Lobbying of course is not bribery."

Because it’s not. You know that lobbyists can’t pay politicians, right? The meme that “lobbying == bribery” needs to die.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#14
post #13

Bribery or MCAS? Your choice.

Option 3: start jailing these fraudsters for criminal fraud. Jail corporate profits for 6 months. Claw back any and all executive pay since the fraud began and distribute it to low level employees or other victims of the fraud.

If you can't survive as an honest company you don't deserve to survive.

And there are very few people that give the government as many screws as executives to modify their behavior.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#15
Thank god.

A particularly nasty aspect of this story, alluded to at the bottom but not made explicit, is that Airbus was taking massive export credits (in the UK, they got the lion's share of the budget).

It was only in the UK that Airbus was required to actually required to produce documentation about the customer, and the scheme was only uncovered when someone at UKEF realised that Airbus wasn't doing this and the govt had been giving out hundreds of millions to corrupt politicians.

Also, the timeline here is incredible. As soon as the UK announced their investigation, and Airbus was banned from receiving credits...they were in negotiations to resume funding, and (somehow) Enders only lost his job 3 years later (and even the UK has turned back on the money spigot...although this time with sheepish promises about trying to fund a company other than Airbus through UKEF).

Airbus is everything that is wrong with the corporate world. Run by politicians, hopelessly corrupt, always spinning, and receiving massive subsidies by dint of their impact on local job markets.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#16
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Don't spend your money bribing foreign governments, keep that money for lobbying in your own country. Lobbying of course is not bribery."

Because it’s not. You know that lobbyists can’t pay politicians, right? The meme that “lobbying == bribery” needs to die.

They can set up the politicians' children and relatives with lucrative government contracts and positions on the boards of investment funds and foreign oil and gas companies, though. The meme that this is somehow OK needs to die.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#17
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Don't spend your money bribing foreign governments, keep that money for lobbying in your own country. Lobbying of course is not bribery."

Because it’s not. You know that lobbyists can’t pay politicians, right? The meme that “lobbying == bribery” needs to die.

If that were the case lobbying would not cost billions of dollars.

Lobbying doesn’t have to be bribery, but in America it absolutely is.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#18
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Don't spend your money bribing foreign governments, keep that money for lobbying in your own country. Lobbying of course is not bribery."

Because it’s not. You know that lobbyists can’t pay politicians, right? The meme that “lobbying == bribery” needs to die.

Nice dinners, catered events, golf meetings, game.tickets, 'free' staff to work on projects isn't quite bribery.

A wink and a nudge showing that politicians and senior staff can have a job making millions isn't quite an offer either..no one would.be so gauche. But it sure gets close.

You can also just forgive debt, or anonymously pay it off.

There is no bribery, but I guess the practical difference seems pretty tiny.

Re: Airbus ran ‘massive’ bribery scheme to win orders

#19
post #3

In Canada SNC Lavalin same things. This is not an easy thing though: the countries in which bribes are paid are run by corrupt people who expect kickbacks as part of doing business, and there's no other way about it. If the West wants to play morally superior on this - then 100% of Airbus, Boeing, SNC, Halliburton and massive industrials will full-on go out of business. This issue is not part of the current round of…

Corruption has already massively improved since the heydays of the 60s and 70s, so I doubt your cynicism.

But of all the industries, big planes should be among the easiest to clean up: there’s only two participants in this prisoners‘ dilemma, and they are both, theoretically, under the purview of rigorous enforcement in countries governed by law.

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