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Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

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Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#771

Post by lovemenot »

otakucode wrote: post #746
eqdw wrote: post #274

Discussions like this are frustrating to me because they always seem to skip over what feels like a crucial element: Do you know _why_ this uptick has happened? Does anyone? I get the feeling, in general, when people talk about wanting to "Do Something" about this sort of thing, they are always focused on managing the symptom and never focused on addressing the cause. Frequently, when I try to bring this up, the caus…

I think it is a confluence of factors, but primarily it has become much more visible due to the rise of social media. And by that I specifically mean that social media enabled far more people to actively contribute and communicate online to wider audiences than previously. Most of the people communicating undesirable ideas have not formed them recently. They have held them and repeated them very often, they simply ha…

>> Human beings have a natural tendency to wish to categorize things in a binary manner...

Assume you're human too. You've illustrated your point, whilst stating it.

My comment is flippant. Sorry for that. Important thing I wanted to say is: not all humans conform to that pattern. Indeed, many entire cultures do not. Including the majority of people in the place where I live now.

I suggest you get out more. You may find that the world is less fully specified than you imagine.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#773

Post by cryptica »

rayuela wrote: post #51

Encourage people to participate in physical social gatherings that center around non-political issues, like hobbies. We need to start emphasizing what we have in common, help people see that ultimately we're really not all that different from each other. The internet lets people hide behind this isolating veneer that makes it too easy to just shout at each other and behave in extreme ways that would never be socially…

Throughout history there has always been a large majority class of people who were suppressed and controlled by the elites just like today. The difference is that today, the suppressed classes are comparatively highly educated and have access to limitless information. Before, this knowledge was accessible mostly by the elites.

Today, the lower classes know what's going on politically and economically better than many of the elites. That's why distrust of institutions is at an all time high. That's why books which label the social order as a fiction like 'Sapiens: A Brief History of Humankind' are top sellers. For the first time in history, the correlation between wealth and knowledge has disappeared and is even starting to reverse.

It's difficult for the elite to control a class which knows what's going on better than they do. And BTW, fake news has a purpose. It's a political and economic weapon invented by the lower and middle classes to serve their needs.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#774

Post by codingmess »

growlist wrote: post #119
codingmess wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"yet we have ample evidence to the contrary on both points" People on HN believe that? The web has changed...

? The original poster said 'how do we stop toxicity', and I am saying how can we tell the toxicity isn't at least somewhat down to bots and shills, the presence of either of which is hardly controversial, is it? I mean we've had people trying to convince us for years that it was the Russian bots that put Trump in the White House, unless I've seriously misunderstood.

"I mean we've had people trying to convince us for years that it was the Russian bots that put Trump in the White House"

Just because people have been trying to convince us of that theory, doesn't mean we have to believe it. Ask yourself who is doing the convincing and what might be their motive.

Anybody who has ever used Social Media knows that in general, bots don't simply get access to your timeline. First they would have to get you to follow them, a much harder problem than running thousands or millions of bots.

Likewise for shills - first you have to get people to follow you.

The notion that we would all be happily in love with each other, if it weren't for bots and chills, isn't really worth investigating.

People are angry online because there are fights over real issues. It's not just Mac vs PC anymore, it is about money, land ownership, power, control... People tend to get angry if you try to take away their stuff.

As a simple example: many people like video games. Other people came around claiming video games are sexist, and try to get game makers to change the games. That is some serious meddling with something many people hold dear. Of course that makes them angry.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#776

Post by luckylion »

Multicomp wrote: post #629
luckylion wrote: post #544

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Have you ever actually talked to people who are unlike you, or hold extremely different view points? Because this whole "the do not tolerate one iota of dissent or open discussion" is very far from my experience. It's true, you usually can't engage people when they are pumped up on adrenaline shouting at each other on Twitter, but that's like jumping into the middle of a brawl and saying "those people will never be a…

> I believe a very important part about "open discussion" is to be honest and compassionate. Don't talk down to people, don't mock them, don't tell them they are scum, or evil, or destroying humanity etc and then say "they don't tolerate dissent" when really they just don't react kindly to hostile behavior. I feel like this is the goal online communities would like to see of their users. Be polite, accept good faith,…

I don't know whether they'd make a lot of money, but they would provide a valuable service.

I tend to see things in a functional way, and I often think that the people that fight on Twitter are using that as a way to blow off steam. It's not healthy as in "it will make them have a better tomorrow", but it might manage the pressure before they explode. If your life is shitty and constantly screaming isn't socially accepted, screaming silently by telling somebody to fuck off might be the next best thing, similarly to mental health issues and substance abuse.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#778

Post by luckylion »

anigbrowl wrote: post #725
luckylion wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those are super edge cases, the vast super majority of things aren't clear cut at all. "Is that policy going to increase employment? Will it depress wages, and by how much?" Good luck with judging who's right and who's wrong.

9-11 was a super edge case. Yes, absolutely it's difficult to make firm judgements about many issues, but we should still pay attention to edge cases because even though the people out at the edges of discourse seem nuts doesn't mean they're not serious or motivated or capable.

Sure, sure, but "serious, motivated and capable" still doesn't give them leverage. You will always have individuals committing terrible things, there will always be the next school shooter or terrorist, but those are, while tragic, small events, and if you didn't turn on the TV, you usually wouldn't notice them if you lived a few hundred miles away. Change the policies of a nation and you'll have a much larger effect that can be felt everywhere within its borders.

So sure, paying attention to the edge cases is fine, but focus most of your attention on the big issues.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#779

Post by buboard »

pjc50 wrote: post #438
eqdw wrote: post #274

Discussions like this are frustrating to me because they always seem to skip over what feels like a crucial element: Do you know _why_ this uptick has happened? Does anyone? I get the feeling, in general, when people talk about wanting to "Do Something" about this sort of thing, they are always focused on managing the symptom and never focused on addressing the cause. Frequently, when I try to bring this up, the caus…

The internet went from subculture to being the mainstream culture, especially for politics. Roughly the point at which everyone started participating in sharing memes on Facebook as the successor to email forwards. This made it valuable enough to be worth destroying. So all kinds of bad actors started creating appealing, emotional, and false or misleading content aimed at this kind of sharing. Polarisation is deliber…

conspiracy theories about nebulous entities also proliferate after eternal september or october
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