(a) Bigotry is already normalized in the United States. The president is a bigot and almost half the country voted for him. This is another negative effect of deplatforming: if you live in a liberal city and only frequent Reddit/Facebook, you live in an echo chamber where you don't have any visibility into what's normal. (b) The legitimacy of a platform is based on what is said there, not the other way around. You vi…
Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
661–670 of 859 posts
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#662It reminded me very much of how I first experienced the net in 1995: I was too amazed at talking to some random person from across the world to bother with petty arguments about politics or religion.
Now, novelty has worn off and, perhaps more importantly, for some people it's never been new - they weren't around to consciously and with great curiosity try it out for the first time. Add to this the factor of prevalence, the scale that brings and how centralized things have become.
I used to hang out on different special interest forums and IRC channels and I have to say there was as much drama, cliques, in-fighting and groupthink there as it is now. It was just smaller and more self-contained.
With today's massive community tools like Instagram, Facebook and Twitter, where there are no clear boundaries between factions or groups of interest, it's just a free-for-all: there's always someone willing to argue about something, and they're all on the same platform, which they have access to all the time, as opposed to having to deal with the diplomacy of dial-up and a shared family phone line.
If tech is to blame, it is only because it's too cheap and ubiquitous: The Great Invention that was supposed to bring us together finally has, and it turns out that we just fucking love to argue.
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#663Earlier quoted context omitted.
The data suggests that deplatforming works. Milo; Katie Hopkins; InfoWars et al have all lost their former agenda-setting influence following deplatforming. And studies have shown that banning hate sub-Reddits does _not_ cause that content to “pop up elsewhere”, it causes it to decline overall. It’s important to remember too there are incentives for people to argue and behave otherwise: FB, Twitter, hate-speech monge…
> The data suggests that deplatforming works. Milo; Katie Hopkins; InfoWars et al have all lost their former agenda-setting influence following deplatforming. And studies have shown that banning hate sub-Reddits does _not_ cause that content to “pop up elsewhere”, it causes it to decline overall. This is simply not an accurate representation of history. Milo Yiannopoulos fell out of popularity because of repeated iss…
I actually find these alternate sites useful for monitoring the latest foreign propaganda because my spouse is from a country with a hostile relationship to the U.S. and consumes most of her news in her native language, which is full of misinformation. I can now more clearly understand where she gets her opinions from sometimes and we can talk it out.
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#664Discussions like this are frustrating to me because they always seem to skip over what feels like a crucial element: Do you know _why_ this uptick has happened? Does anyone? I get the feeling, in general, when people talk about wanting to "Do Something" about this sort of thing, they are always focused on managing the symptom and never focused on addressing the cause. Frequently, when I try to bring this up, the caus…
If we're talking about online conversations only, then I personally believe that the reduction in AGE of participants online has had a massive influence. Teenagers simply do not have the maturity to have mature conversations.
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#665Earlier quoted context omitted.
But the average left-leaning person today doesn't see bigots even as people any more. I spend the bulk of my time studying extremist discourse and communities. Extremist bigots take it as read that people of the wrong ethnic/religious/political group are either not people or at best inferior people, and direct their efforts to promoting those views, planning how to eliminate those they dislike, and normalizing that b…
Why is this suddenly a discussion about extremism? Not everyone who is bigoted is an extremist, but maybe it's easier for you to argue as though this is the case. > Extremist bigots take it as read that people of the wrong [...] group are either not people or at best inferior people, and direct their efforts to promoting those views, planning how to eliminate those they dislike, and normalizing that behavior. Funny,…
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#666Earlier quoted context omitted.
Why is this suddenly a discussion about extremism? Not everyone who is bigoted is an extremist, but maybe it's easier for you to argue as though this is the case. > Extremist bigots take it as read that people of the wrong [...] group are either not people or at best inferior people, and direct their efforts to promoting those views, planning how to eliminate those they dislike, and normalizing that behavior. Funny,…
Why is this suddenly a discussion about extremism? Because that is my area of expertise and I wish to contribute to the discussion. While not all bigots are extremists, all extremists are bigots. "Warning" and "complaining" is one thing, but advocating for the complete social and professional ostracization of people for increasingly arbitrary reasons I'm not making an argument for cancel culture, which has flaws of i…
No one would disagree with that definition. Your comment's parent made the point that exclusionary language is used in many in-groups, not just bigoted ones.
Your contribution was to say that the parent is talking about left-leaning people like they are - in your words - genocide advocates. I don't know that this is a quality contribution.
> You seem to be assuming that most people are mindless, and further that I'm talking about the broad mass of people.
Are you saying that people generally have control over their opinions and predispositions? I know I can't change my views at will, Lord knows if I could I'd become a bit more woke to fit in better.
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#667The web mirrors people. How do you stop people from behaving like they do..? And why would you want to? Who should decide how people should behave (beyond established laws, of course)? If people don't do something illegal that should be reported, they're being people. You have nice people, assholes, politically correct, politically incorrect, etc.
And mirrors change behaviours. You don't find people preening before blank walls or open spaces. The mirror informs and provides feedback.
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#668Earlier quoted context omitted.
You’re asserting that it’s worse like that’s a fact. It’s not. It’s much better than the old days now that many accounts are tied to your real name, and since enforcement of community standards became commonplace. The US political polarization is more widespread, on and offline, but online discourse is still pretty mild compared to the old days of greater anonymity.
What accounts are tied to your real name? I don't use any facebook products so don't know about that, but don't know of any other that are tied to my name. Enforcement of community standards has backfired in the form of weaponised censorship.
Even where there's some anonymity by using a user name, there's rarely anonymity from legal authorities, who can easily access your entire internet and location history - and a VPN won't help you, because those aren't secure.
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#669Earlier quoted context omitted.
>Now it's invading your real life, your real-world friendships, your workplace, even your family. I fully expect in the future for there to be a segment of the population that chooses to "drop out" of the always-connected digital social life for these reasons. And I don't just mean giving up Facebook, but going back to analog social circles only, as well as ignoring those who are still connected (and hooked) digitall…
Don't wait for the future. You can have this life today. Whenever I read about how this Twitter stream is toxic, and that group is using Facebook to harass some person, about Gamergate and 4chan and The_Donald--how glad I am that I don't participate in any of these sites, and therefore have opted out of all of this drama! This stuff is almost 100% online. It's not invading your real life unless you invite it in. Swit…
Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?
#670Discussions like this are frustrating to me because they always seem to skip over what feels like a crucial element: Do you know _why_ this uptick has happened? Does anyone? I get the feeling, in general, when people talk about wanting to "Do Something" about this sort of thing, they are always focused on managing the symptom and never focused on addressing the cause. Frequently, when I try to bring this up, the caus…
I believe the reason for the uptick is two-fold. 1.) In general, this is a reactionary movement from the elite class of society(straight, white, cis people) to keep a death grip on the social and systemic power they see being taken from them in the form of diversity, equality, feminism, etc. This has been happening for a long time now, but it got real, real bad after... 2.) ...Trump was elected. Him winning the elect…
It’s actually exactly the opposite. We lurched left in a very short time. As recently as 2007, a plurality even of Hispanics said there were “too many immigrants” in the US. https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2019/02/19/latinos-hav.... Little more than a decade later, every mainstream Democratic candidate is running on providing universal healthcare to people who immigrate illegally.