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Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

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361–370 of 859 posts

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#361

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But those are super edge cases, the vast super majority of things aren't clear cut at all. "Is that policy going to increase employment? Will it depress wages, and by how much?" Good luck with judging who's right and who's wrong.

These "super edge cases" are happening monthly . THAT's the problem. The examples given weren't a historical review, they're a sampling of what happened in 2019! If these were in any way rare or outside the norm, I'd feel safe ignoring them, but even in cases of absolute truth and fact (jade in your vagina does not cure anything) we get a netflix series .

> These "super edge cases" are happening monthly.

Yes, in a world with literally billions of people, you have a few millions who believe outlandish things. If that was the extent of the problem with polarization/toxicity on the internet (or public debate in general), I doubt we'd talk about it, and I'd be very happy with the state of the world.

Those people have no large base, no stable membership, no money, no power. Focusing on them is like decrying the fall of science because 6yo Timmy still believes in Santa Clause.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#362
post #196

>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…

But it is the real world now ... People form their beliefs and make decisions in the world based on what they consume online. I frequently see Twitter memes spoken from people's mouths in person. I mostly abstain from it, but like it or not, Twitter does matter. I've also been online since 1993, and used Usenet for many years. Back then you could compartmentalize some argument as a bunch of nerds, but now it's just "…

But weren't "nerds" always just "people"? It's the interpretation of the culture that's changed as well.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And one of the sides has to be right. Sometimes the facts are difficult to ascertain, but so many of the lies spread via social media are easily disproved by consulting primary sources.

> but so many of the lies spread via social media are easily disproved by consulting primary sources. I wish this were true. I used to post snopes links and primary sources to Baby Boomer posts on Facebook, but it's hopeless. They either don't trust the fact-check, can rationalize it away, or just don't care. One of the most shocking realizations of my adult life has been learning that a very large portion of my othe…

Why exactly should they trust Snopes in particular, as opposed to Washington Post, Fox News, RT, the North Korean news agency, etc.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#365

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Look into the lives of politicians in the 1950's and 1960's. They frequently socialized together and worked together. They were able to find common ground. Every victory for one party wasn't necessarily a loss for the other. How often do you think Mitch McConnell goes out for a drink with Bernie Sanders?" That's the problem with transparency and constant scrutiny. In the 50s and 60s you could hide affairs like Kenne…

It isn't necessarily about making backroom deals. The tribe mentality is so deep that I'm not sure that Sanders and McConnell would recognize that the other person is trying to do what they think is best for the country. I'm not sure they could sit down and talk about their families or their favorite place to travel.

I just think the tribe mentality got informed by the constant news cycle now. A lot of sane people have probably left congress and now you have a lot of hyperpartisans who like fighting for its own sake.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#366
post #274

Discussions like this are frustrating to me because they always seem to skip over what feels like a crucial element: Do you know _why_ this uptick has happened? Does anyone? I get the feeling, in general, when people talk about wanting to "Do Something" about this sort of thing, they are always focused on managing the symptom and never focused on addressing the cause. Frequently, when I try to bring this up, the caus…

https://waitbutwhy.com/2019/08/story-of-us.html

This might not be a perfect resource. Among other things, he likes to use a lot of words to explain his point. But he offers up his theories on the Why behind polarization, including several contributors. Even if he doesn't get everything right, I think this is a solid place for someone who's serious about understanding it to start, and find plenty of references to dig into.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#367
post #308
post #287

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It really is interesting that our anecdotes can be so different. I'm assuming you're older than me (25) since you mention the pre-web internet, so I'd also guess that by the time you were on the web/pre-web internet you would've had a more developed filter than I. My introduction to the web progressed roughly with watching my dad use BBS -> playing Neopets and Runescape -> becoming very involved with Runescape forums…

What video game forums compared at all to 4chans /b/? Every where banned you for gore, child porn, harassment, encouraging suicide. I really don't think you should be trying to normalize 4chan as thats just the way the internet is.

There is/was also a profound difference between /b/ and most of the rest of 4chan though. Not all of the site is /b/, that's just the most famous. It definitely set some of the culture of the other boards, but not to that same degree.

The video game/tabletop game boards on 4chan were fairly normal for boards at that time, and it's not like everyone who was active on 4chan was there to post or read /b/. You might dip into it for a laugh or dare now and then, but at least when I was younger it was more like the internet equivalent of sneaking into the abandoned house down the street: a "dangerous" thing that felt cool to do.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#368
This is not an answer but on a similar note, has anyone watched the latest Joe Rogan Experience with Daryl Davis. He is a black man who convinced Klan Members to leave the KKK. Amazing podcast. Maybe the only way to stop toxicity/polarity is to show real conversations with real people.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#369

Stop responding to it. No seriously, just stop. This isn't a "complex problem that needs nuanced technical and legislative solutions". Back in the old day, there was this saying. "Do not feed the trolls". Sadly, we've forgotten that. Our current approach is, "create rigorous 30 minute point by point take down videos to defeat their point of view". Our urge to debate and correct people who are wrong just fuels them ma…

Not feeding the trolls is good advice for one's personal emotional health, but it has never made the trolls go away. There's too much infrastructure supporting them: they know what works, and they broadcast to everybody. It only takes one response to give them the burst of dopamine they're looking for. Responding makes it worse for you. It gives them a second chance aggravate you, this time with more precision. Downv…

I'm only responsible for me. These people won't change, no matter how eloquently I phrase my fact-filled take-down of their arguments. I'll sometimes argue just for the audience, but I can't fix everyone that believes something (I think is) wrong. It's not my place, anyway. People are slowly becoming more "street-wise" on the internet. This is just one of those traps people can only avoid after they've learned their lesson first-hand.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#370
To my mind, this is a little like people being depressed about The News. The News tends to be negative stuff and it used to be available for an hour or two on the TV. Now, you can access The News 24/7 via TV, internet, radio, etc.

Some folks find that really depressing because they get so much more negativity in their headspace than they used to. A primary approach to not being depressed about The News is to stop letting it take up so much of your time and attention. Actively seek to tune it out and focus on other things.

Similarly, the internet is bigger than it used to be, so some of this is perceptual and/or a numbers game. It's easy to find fightiness and feel like "It's everywhere." It's relatively easy to take good things for granted and underappreciate them.

Some things I find helpful:

1. Actively seek constructive engagement. For me, this involves declining to indulge the knee-jerk reaction to rebut anything and everything that directly disagrees with some comment I made (ie replies to me that tell me "You are wrong!" or similar). This is a bad habit of mine that just makes things worse and no amount of trying to justify to myself why I tend to do this makes it not a bad habit.

2. If I do choose to reply to people who disagree with me or who are being negative, think about what my goal is and what I'm trying to accomplish. Is there particular information I would like to put out as a result of their comment? Can I do it without just going down that path of "No, you!"?

3. Grow a thicker skin. I don't absolutely have to have every single person who replies to me on the internet like me, be nice to me, be my friend, blah blah blah. It's okay for other people to disagree with me and to talk about what they think. I can decline to take it so freaking personally that the entire world doesn't always agree with me.

4. Keep in mind that people are much more likely to reply to you online if they disagree. There isn't a whole lot to say if you agree and HN in particular actively discourages low value replies. So you aren't going to see a lot of vacuous "Me toos" here. That doesn't mean people here hate me.

5. View some of it through the lens of "HN/The Internet is bigger than it used to be. It's a numbers game. Multiple replies disagreeing with me say more about that fact than about me, this opinion, etc."

6. Work on my communication skills. This is an ongoing effort. Some phrases or framings tend to get knee-jerk negative engagement. Learning to say it better helps reduce the nonsense.

At the same time, I try to make my peace with the fact that no amount of effort on my end will ever completely put a stop to other people choosing to do whatever the heck they choose to do. "You can't please all of the people all the time" and that sort of thing.

(This comment is not intended to be comprehensive. It's just an off-the-cuff forum comment, not a PhD thesis.)

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