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How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

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Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The proper solution would be to tax trucks exactly the amount of damage they cause. This would cause the cost of imported goods to go up and the cost of local goods to go down. In the short term you would see the extra cost and lower taxes cancel each other out and in the long term, local goods become more common than imported.

Which is always easier said than done and a bit simplistic. The primary factor derived to date has been to tie the wear factor to axle weight. Meaning an empty vehicle made for transporting goods would be in the range of passenger vehicles. In addition to simple overloading, improperly balanced loading represents more damage for the same total vehicle weight. So each axle must be weighed in a loaded state on each ind…

Don't we already weigh trucks as they enter and leave the state, as well as sometimes in the middle of the state? I don't know what goes on there already, but we could certainly charge trucks based on loaded miles in the state, which should be pretty easy to calculate since they have very predictable driving patterns and take fairly detailed logs. For local deliveries, we could just charge based on the max load and allow drivers to prove anything otherwise.

And yes, consumers will pay regardless, but at least the difference is reflected in the cost of goods. It could very well be that certain local goods are cheaper than imported goods after road costs are properly factored in, which could change how much is imported.

However, this feels a bit regressive since poorer people will pay more of the cost since roads are largely funded by income tax, but that can be accounted for by shifting other taxes. The idea isn't too punish poor people or shipping customers, but to allow the market to work more efficiently.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#312
post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Look all you want, but road maintenance costs are primarily a subsidy for the trucking industry, and by extension the businesses that rely on them. Businesses that are primarily located in.....cities. If Middletown USA didn't have to worry about 80,000 lbs trucks hauling kombucha to your local bodega tearing up their roads, perhaps road costs would be a bit more in-line with reality. More importantly if we focused mo…

Traffic on roads could stop tomorrow and you'd still need to resurface the entirety of the road network anywhere with a winter season every 5-10 years. Thermal expansion and contraction are serious forces for infrastructure, outweighing traffic in most places I imagine (if most places aren't large cities). Didn't matter much back when we used brick or dirt.

Sure, but they do contribute to the cost of maintaining roads. We need to figure out roughly what percentage of road maintenance costs come from vehicles and charge individual vehicles based on their rough contribution to maintenance costs. It's not a terribly hard calculation, especially since you can directly compare with roads that are infrequently used by trucks.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#313

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The price of rail is pretty good when you consider the capacity. That single rail line is replacing at least 6 lanes of highway and would get people to their destination safer and faster with less air pollution which is a major issue they are trying to tackle.

(ime) Trains only get you to your destination faster if your destination is a train station

Light rail has a lot more destinations, and most rail systems are designed to complement bus systems.

I live in Utah, and our "urban" area (SLC) is similar to many "suburban" areas in terms of population density. We have a commuter line that intersects with light rail, which intersects with the bus system. Rail hits most of the important business areas, and buses hit most of the residential areas, and each runs every 15-20 minutes. If you know the system, you can get around fairly well without a car. It was expensive to build, but it is used quite a bit so it is absolutely worth it.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

there is a certain cynicism regarding traffic laws in the US. many drivers feel that some of the laws are in place for the sole purpose of revenue collection or to give the police an excuse to pull you over, absent any real safety concern. in my state, for example, it is against the law to have anything dangling from the rearview mirror. if I so much as forget to take down my parking permit in the morning, I can be p…

> in the US. many drivers feel that some of the laws are in place for the sole purpose of revenue collection That's not a US only phenomenon. For example, in the UK there is a - somewhat justified - suspicion that some speed[1] cameras have nothing to do with safety and everything to do with revenue raising. [1] Ahem, sorry, I mean "safety" not "speed", obviously.

just wanted to add some context for the EU readers who I (perhaps mistakenly) assume have a bit more respect for government and for traffic laws in particular.

the US has a somewhat fraught history with traffic laws. by default, police are not really allowed to stop you for no reason and possibly search your vehicle/person. of course, this is very inconvenient for police, so over the years many traffic offenses have been created to remedy this. if a cop wants to (legally) pull over the most upstanding citizen in the country, all they have to do is follow them on the road for a mile and they'll have a reason.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've started driving again after a couple of years off, and it still astounds me that people lane hog the middle lane. I don't know if it's laziness, ego, or fear of motorways but it should be taught as a rule. I usually make it a point to overtake and then, if possible, go straight back across to the left lane. Highly doubt the hogger is paying any attention, but I feel more content feeling like I've taught somethin…

I drive when and where I feel comfortable. Usually at or slightly below the speed limit. I'm mostly optimizing for making the minimum number of lane changes once I get on the motorway. Preferably that means as soon as I get on the motorway switching to whatever lane will take me directly to the exit. A lot of people do what you do. Doesn't bother me a bit. My logic is no one is really actually getting anywhere any fa…

I drive at the speed limit as well - the number of people you see doing 60mph in the middle lane though is worrying. I see that as the dangerous thing (and would argue that it inherently makes changing lanes more dangerous as you have 3 trafficked lanes, rather than 2 with a usually empty middle).

If you stick to the middle when the slow lane is even going faster than you, that's definitely the time to move over.

My aim is to be a good road citizen and obey by rules and convention to ensure everyone's journey is smooth, not only my own.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#316

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drive when and where I feel comfortable. Usually at or slightly below the speed limit. I'm mostly optimizing for making the minimum number of lane changes once I get on the motorway. Preferably that means as soon as I get on the motorway switching to whatever lane will take me directly to the exit. A lot of people do what you do. Doesn't bother me a bit. My logic is no one is really actually getting anywhere any fa…

I drive at the speed limit as well - the number of people you see doing 60mph in the middle lane though is worrying. I see that as the dangerous thing (and would argue that it inherently makes changing lanes more dangerous as you have 3 trafficked lanes, rather than 2 with a usually empty middle). If you stick to the middle when the slow lane is even going faster than you, that's definitely the time to move over. My…

If you think of the lanes as one driving lane and the others as overtaking lanes like they do in the UK or some other countries then there is no conception of slow or fast lane and there are no people going slower in the overtaking lanes, or someone with a faster car just hogging the outside lane. They have to move over always.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That feels pretty legit to me. I don't remember reading that, but when I drive a car and I've got more than 2 lanes to choose from, I usually end up in the middle. The right lane always has people merging, either to enter or exit, or trucks lumbering along at 45. The left lane always has someone wanting to do 90 in a 55. Middle is the smoothest, from a traffic flow perspective. On a motorcycle it's all about riding b…

"The right lane always has people merging, either to enter or exit, or trucks lumbering along at 45." Interesting perspective. I feel a little differently: - cars meeting to enter shouldn't affect you, because it's their responsibility to get to the right speed and time their entry to a gap; an entering car should never cause you to need to change speed or direction - an exiting car shouldn't affect you, because ther…

> cars meeting to enter shouldn't affect you

But they do, because when they don't it's potentially your life on the line.

> an exiting car shouldn't affect you

But they do, because there's always a reason.

> just change lanes to overtake, and then pull back into the right lane afterwards

I look at the act of driving on the freeway as gambling with my life. Every single action I take (or don't) has the potential to kill me. This is anecdotal, so I'm happy to take actual facts and change my opinion, but I see a much higher order of accidents (or near misses) caused by changing lanes than I see from people staying in their lane. My conclusion is that staying in a lane is inherently safer than drifting from lane to lane based on its occupancy level.

> Driving in the middle lane is optimal from each driver's own perspective

I generally stay in the middle lane when the load on the freeway is low to moderate. When the load is high it doesn't matter which lane you're in; they're all sub-optimal. But if there are so many people driving in the middle lane that journey times are increased, then people will start to pass more often and the lanes will even out. If they don't, then you're in high load.

> it reduces road capacity

It doesn't reduce road capacity. It could reduce road capacity utilization, but if you're hitting that point then the utilization has already taken a hit, and driver patterns change to utilize the road more fully (for better or worse).

Ultimately the lane choice of each driver doesn't matter, because drivers won't sit in bumper to bumper traffic with a wide open lane next to them.

In fact, changing lanes reduces road capacity utilization. For the duration of the lane change and for a short period before and after the car is effectively taking up two cars places (their place in the old lane and the new).

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I drive at the speed limit as well - the number of people you see doing 60mph in the middle lane though is worrying. I see that as the dangerous thing (and would argue that it inherently makes changing lanes more dangerous as you have 3 trafficked lanes, rather than 2 with a usually empty middle). If you stick to the middle when the slow lane is even going faster than you, that's definitely the time to move over. My…

If you think of the lanes as one driving lane and the others as overtaking lanes like they do in the UK or some other countries then there is no conception of slow or fast lane and there are no people going slower in the overtaking lanes, or someone with a faster car just hogging the outside lane. They have to move over always.

[deleted]

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#319
post #186

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In all of Europe, undertaking is illegal. When we come to the US, driving feels like you are in a third world country.

In the UK it's actually not illegal: it's just advised against, and considered bad form in most situations by most drivers. And, of course, if you cause an accident by undertaking the police will (rightly) throw the book at you. Examples where it's considered acceptable to undertake: - In heavier or queuing traffic inside lanes might move faster than outside lanes: this is OK, and it's considered better and safer to…

The Highway Code says you shouldn't do it unless you're in slow moving traffic. RAC article here: https://www.rac.co.uk/drive/advice/legal/undertaking/

The problem with undertaking for me is that it reduces options when you need them the most.

If I'm in the middle lane doing 70mph and thinking "I can't pull into the inside because that car is only 30 foot off my bumper", that driver deciding to keep up with me at 70mph or undertaking reduces my outs in the event of a tyre blowout or other incident (e.g. a broken down car or debris in the middle lane ahead).

Where there is a dynamic hard shoulder or all-lane running, options become fewer still and the chance of a problem even higher.

And then there are the lorries on the inside of a 50mph average speed check contraflow undertaking in narrow lanes at 0.25mph more than the outside lane - that's just an accident waiting to happen.

I've also been on the outside lane overtaking somebody who was doing 65mph in the middle lane with an empty inside lane who as I moved to overtake sped up. Not undertaking: just blocking me from moving past and back into the middle lane.

I then had a boy racer come in behind me at 90mph and have to throw the anchor out whilst flashing his lights at me, and my options are basically "hope for the best". We were on a relatively tight corner for a motorway (it's that horrid section of the M60 that runs through Stockport), so deciding to accelerate to get out of this would have meant potentially losing control of the car, and the guy in the middle lane was likely going to pin me there anyway...

For me then - especially in the narrow lanes of UK motorways - it is not just about using middle and outside lanes for passing only, there is a responsibility of the drivers on the inside to allow that to happen and give those around them enough options if they need them, and not doing so should be considered just as much a case of careless driving as undertaking in most other scenarios.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#320
post #304

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the risk of sounding cold hearted: I get that it doesn't seem fair, but logically, it's the right call to drive to the end of the lane. 1) It keeps the rules simple. If we should merge at some arbitrary point before the lane is up, it will always be arbitrary, and different drivers will have different opinions. 2) By getting to the end and slowing down, the driver now has matched the speed of traffic. It's a self…

On paper, maybe the zipper is excellent. In practice, with prideful LA drivers, its a shit show. I know the maneuver the previous commenter described, it only leads to pain. - everyone effectively stopped in the exit lane has to stop for even longer - everyone in the thru traffic lanes has to deal with this person merging all the way from the left to the right with no blinker, then coming to a stop in the right most…

What you're describing is a problem, but a different one. Def not zipper merge.

For merging (on ramps), waiting to the last moment is collectively efficient. For diverging traffic (exits) it isn't, especially if there's a backup.

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