Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web? • Hacker News Board

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#101

Post by blululu » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

wool_gather wrote: post #44

thdrdt wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I also think the lack of consequences makes it very easy for people to post all kinds of shit. On HN this is greatly reduced by the point system and the opacity of bad posts. A bad post fades away so it doesn't look as important as other posts. In real life you can get a punch in the face if you say nasty things to someone. But on Twitter, Facebook and YouTube most trolls wont ever learn because they just can say wha…

Worth considering that this isn't simply mechanical: to make those posts fade away requires humans clicking the downvote button. Which requires some kind of culture that includes clicking the button on "bad" posts, for whatever the definition of "bad" is. If there were downvoting on say, YouTube, I'm not sure that it would produce the same results that it does on HN.

Hacker News is indeed a special place on the internet and it would probably be difficult to reproduce its style of discussion. That being said I think it is worth considering why HN has succeeded and to what extent is this a function of the presentation algorithm (upvotes/downvotes)?

It is worth remembering that the visible part of an internet community is a small part of the total possible community. Following the classic 90-9-1 rule there are a lot more people who could participate than people who do participate. This means that the visible face of an online community has a lot of room to change.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#102

Post by bilbo0s » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

organsnyder wrote: post #84

tengbretson wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might find that the people you see posting and repeating these lies see the things that you post and repeat as lies.

And one of the sides has to be right. Sometimes the facts are difficult to ascertain, but so many of the lies spread via social media are easily disproved by consulting primary sources.

>And one of the sides has to be right

Not necessarily. In the US one of our presidents taught us a long time ago that "both may be" wrong, and "one must be" wrong.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#103

Post by slumdev » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

I think most people would be less toxic if their posts and comments were both (1) public and (2) linked to their real name.

Someone posting anonymously or under a pseudonym has nothing to lose. He might not intend to offend, but he has no reason to guard his tone or consider how his audience will receive him.

Someone who posts under his real name on Facebook but only shouts into an echo chamber filled with like-minded "friends" also has nothing to lose.

Shame is a great motivator. Fear of loss of friends or career prospects is also a great motivator.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#104

Post by naringas » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:10 PM UTC

we will have to understand how culture (i.e. original definition of memes: cultural attitudes, bits of knowledge, generalized narratives) is a collective action in which we all participate.

In essence it works by mimicry. we mimic our peers and our peers mimic us. we just gotta be careful about what we mimic.

the tricky part is that this process is largely (but not entirely) subconscious. and also it takes a lot of focus and well applied effort to change previously learned behaviors. specially when "everyone else (within you social circles) does this"

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#105

Post by DoofusOfDeath » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

organsnyder wrote: post #84

tengbretson wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You might find that the people you see posting and repeating these lies see the things that you post and repeat as lies.

And one of the sides has to be right. Sometimes the facts are difficult to ascertain, but so many of the lies spread via social media are easily disproved by consulting primary sources.

Perhaps the following is obvious, but other possibilities may exist:

- both sides are wrong

- the participants are unwittingly talking past each each other

Etc.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#106

Post by [deleted] » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

etangent wrote: post #94

gbrown wrote: post #88

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They frequently do see things in that way - and they're wrong. In fact, they're worse than wrong, because many people see the dueling assertions of fact and give up on knowing the truth of a situation altogether. This is a classic disinformation technique. We do have the ability to determine truth from fiction, it just takes more work than cynically throwing up your hands and smugly concluding all sides are lying.

The desire to "correct" other people who are wrong is the fundamental impulse of authoritarianism.

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#107

Post by _y5hn » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:11 PM UTC

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #32

Stop responding to it. No seriously, just stop. This isn't a "complex problem that needs nuanced technical and legislative solutions". Back in the old day, there was this saying. "Do not feed the trolls". Sadly, we've forgotten that. Our current approach is, "create rigorous 30 minute point by point take down videos to defeat their point of view". Our urge to debate and correct people who are wrong just fuels them ma…

What's new is the political Echochambers.

Stop feeding partisan BS. You are not Left nor Right!

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#108

Post by SpicyLemonZest » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

fredley wrote: post #86

bjt2n3904 wrote: post #32

Stop responding to it. No seriously, just stop. This isn't a "complex problem that needs nuanced technical and legislative solutions". Back in the old day, there was this saying. "Do not feed the trolls". Sadly, we've forgotten that. Our current approach is, "create rigorous 30 minute point by point take down videos to defeat their point of view". Our urge to debate and correct people who are wrong just fuels them ma…

Part of the problem is that social platforms online are built around heavily optimising for engagement. Content that gets engagement must be better, so it gets promoted more heavily, and algorithms show you personally the content it thinks you're most likely to react to. You can't leave because it's messily wrapped up with your social connections to your friends. Until this system dies, we won't solve this problem. I…

You don't have to leave, although I think most people overestimate how much it would hurt their social connections if they did. You just have to refuse to engage with toxic content when you see it, the same way you avoid debating with an obnoxious friend. (Newer social media platforms, unsurprisingly, are designed to make this easier; it's much easier to avoid dumb arguments on Instagram or Tiktok than Facebook or Twitter.)

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#109

Post by cubano » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

I remember being a part of a very early forum called "Plastic" in the mid 2000's and, believe me, there was PLENTY of polarization/toxicity there, so I'm not really buying that this is a new thing.

I remember being VERY active in that forum, but eventually I quit and sent an email to the owner ( I know I know ), his name was Carl I think?...saying that I could no longer deal with the absolute political polarization (anti-Libertarian) I found on the site.

So yes...you "fix" it by being the change you want to see. There is really nothing else one can do.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#110

Post by x3haloed » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 5:13 PM UTC

scottlocklin wrote: post #77

>I've noticed a huge uptick in the toxicity online in the last 5-7 years. You're crazy my dude(tte). I've been on the interbutts since 1991 and Usenet days, and it's exactly as it always was. The big difference is we have reporter ding dongs on Twitter thinking Twitter, aka the comments section they removed from their web presence, is the real world. Also old people on Facebook who never learned the lessons of being…

I recently logged into CS:GO to play something familiar and holy cow, the toxicity! Just like the old days. Online gaming has always been extremely toxic, and most internet discussion has been that way since the beginning. It reminded me of just how little of that I see in day to day internet browsing these days. I think the veracity of the toxicity is tamer, but the reach and impact is so much wider.