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Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

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Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#21

Post by CM30 »

Truth be told, the most practical solution is to stop centralising everything and using these giant social networking sites that force people with nothing in common together. The bigger your audience gets and the less focused on any one topic it is, the harder it is to moderate/keep under the control, and the more drama you'll inevitably have when groups clash there.

Smaller internet forums, subreddits, Discord/Slack groups, etc tend to be a lot more civil than the likes of Twitter or YouTube are.

So a revival of those types of sites and communities will help a lot.

As will returning to the days of multi pseudonyms for different websites. Because people are not one sided. They don't always act the same way in every setting.

No, their behaviour depends on the company they're with. They might act one way with family, another way with friends, another way at work, etc.

That's how society stays together to some degree. People don't know how others act in other settings, and they don't care. Your coworkers likely have a whole mix of political opinions, but since it likely doesn't come up during work, it doesn't really matter.

Social networks seem to be trying to demolish this sense of separation between sides of people's personalities, and that's making society more and more fragile, as one wrong move means someone's entire life gets destroyed by the internet mob.

Oh, and decent moderation too. Unfortunately for Facebook and co, you can't automate moderation and expect it to work well, and you can't outsource it to a bunch of full time employees in a distant office somewhere. It has to be done by people with a real investment in the community, which is again where a well run small community shines.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#22

Post by banads »

BjoernKW wrote: post #20

This is not an algorithm problem. It's a people problem. Start with yourself: http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html An algorithmic solution would be to rigorously hide everything that looks like mere unproductive outrage from public discourse. However, not only would that amount the severe censorship but it'd probably also not be exactly easy to implement. Besides, platforms such as Twitter or good old-fashioned ne…

Let's not pretend algorithms optimized for "engagement" don't feed on hate. Is there any other emotion which is so easily evoked, manipulated, and engaging as anger/hate?

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#23

Post by rgrieselhuber »

It helps to realize that much of it is intentional, especially on behalf of companies like Facebook. Once you realize this it has a sort of spell-breaking effect. Ask yourself if you would say the same sort of thing to someone if you were face to face. If the answer is no, think twice about posting it online.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#24

Post by jjoonathan »

muzani wrote: post #7

I've been active online since 2000. There was a theory in 2004, known as GIFT: Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad Guess what? People without anonymity are total fuckwads too - this happens on Facebook, Instagram and Twitch, in an era where you could probably find someone's personal details if you look hard enough. I think the key is audience . Bullying feels good for a lot of people. Bullies will go…

> You see people picking on anti-vax, flat earthers, Justin Bieber, not so much because they do harm, but because they're easy targets to hold down.

Your other examples were solid, but anti-vax absolutely does cause harm, and it seems inappropriate to dismiss the possibility that in the case of anti-vax people are motivated by genuine fear for our collective safety and that of our children.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#25

Post by dx87 »

I don't think you can fix it, it's just the nature of the Internet. I was talking to some older coworkers who were adults before the Internet became mainstream, and they said that before the Internet, your social circle was neighbors and co-workers, so being an ass would have direct, and sometimes physically painful, ramifications. They said that on the Internet, there's no real ramifications for being a horrible person, and you'll always find a group of people that agree with what you say, whereas before you'd get ostracized, or worse, for treating your neighbors/co-workers poorly. I think the best you can do is encourage people to interact outside of the Internet, and hope that the manners required to function IRL stick with them when they go online.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#26

Post by thdrdt »

muzani wrote: post #7

I've been active online since 2000. There was a theory in 2004, known as GIFT: Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad Guess what? People without anonymity are total fuckwads too - this happens on Facebook, Instagram and Twitch, in an era where you could probably find someone's personal details if you look hard enough. I think the key is audience . Bullying feels good for a lot of people. Bullies will go…

I also think the lack of consequences makes it very easy for people to post all kinds of shit.

On HN this is greatly reduced by the point system and the opacity of bad posts. A bad post fades away so it doesn't look as important as other posts.

In real life you can get a punch in the face if you say nasty things to someone.

But on Twitter, Facebook and YouTube most trolls wont ever learn because they just can say whatever they want.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#27

Post by rexer »

jjoonathan wrote: post #24
muzani wrote: post #7

I've been active online since 2000. There was a theory in 2004, known as GIFT: Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad Guess what? People without anonymity are total fuckwads too - this happens on Facebook, Instagram and Twitch, in an era where you could probably find someone's personal details if you look hard enough. I think the key is audience . Bullying feels good for a lot of people. Bullies will go…

> You see people picking on anti-vax, flat earthers, Justin Bieber, not so much because they do harm, but because they're easy targets to hold down. Your other examples were solid, but anti-vax absolutely does cause harm, and it seems inappropriate to dismiss the possibility that in the case of anti-vax people are motivated by genuine fear for our collective safety and that of our children.

The claim wasn't that they're harmless, but that they're easy targets.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#28

Post by commandlinefan »

muzani wrote: post #7

I've been active online since 2000. There was a theory in 2004, known as GIFT: Normal Person + Anonymity + Audience = Total Fuckwad Guess what? People without anonymity are total fuckwads too - this happens on Facebook, Instagram and Twitch, in an era where you could probably find someone's personal details if you look hard enough. I think the key is audience . Bullying feels good for a lot of people. Bullies will go…

> People without anonymity are total fuckwads too

Hell, go read any "opinion" article from any newspaper since the dawn of the printing press. They were well-written fuckwads, but they were pretty much all fuckwads.

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#29

Post by lukifer »

banads wrote: post #22
BjoernKW wrote: post #20

This is not an algorithm problem. It's a people problem. Start with yourself: http://www.paulgraham.com/identity.html An algorithmic solution would be to rigorously hide everything that looks like mere unproductive outrage from public discourse. However, not only would that amount the severe censorship but it'd probably also not be exactly easy to implement. Besides, platforms such as Twitter or good old-fashioned ne…

Let's not pretend algorithms optimized for "engagement" don't feed on hate. Is there any other emotion which is so easily evoked, manipulated, and engaging as anger/hate?

CGP Grey: "This Video Will Make You Angry" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rE3j_RHkqJc

Re: Ask HN: How do we stop the polarization/toxicicity filling the web?

#30

Post by grawprog »

CM30 wrote: post #21

Truth be told, the most practical solution is to stop centralising everything and using these giant social networking sites that force people with nothing in common together. The bigger your audience gets and the less focused on any one topic it is, the harder it is to moderate/keep under the control, and the more drama you'll inevitably have when groups clash there. Smaller internet forums, subreddits, Discord/Slack…

>As will returning to the days of multi pseudonyms for different websites. Because people are not one sided. They don't always act the same way in every setting.

I never stopped doing this. The problem is, a lot of younger people were never taught to or never learned they should do this and a lot of older people same thing sort of.

I was kind of lucky I suppose, years ago I had a friend say something on a work Facebook page that caused some trouble, I realized Facebook wasn't a place I could have people like that, so since I've kept Facebook or any other social media website with personal information and concersations on it strictly professional or Christmas dinner at grandma's house level. Which pretty much means, no politics, no getting involved in other people's arguments, no posting things I wouldn't want an employer or my grandma seeing, no friends that post ridiculous things on my feed etc.

Then i've got my forum and other online site accounts that lack, for the most part, studd that could easily identify me, though I'm sure someone with lots of time and dedication(dunno why though), could figure it out, that use a different email than my 'real' email, where I can talk about things without worrying that I might randomly piss off someone I know.

If I want to have potentially divisive conversations with people I know in person, I'd rather do it in person or at least not on what might as well be the community billboard.

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