Not everyone has an internal monologue • Hacker News Board

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#511

Post by zipwitch » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 1:34 AM UTC

misterprime wrote: post #425

lincolnq wrote: post #398

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For me, scents are rich sensory experiences. Yet I can’t describe cinnamon to you, other than that it smells like cinnamon. It’s like an opaque pointer, I can compare equality but not inspect it beyond that.

Verbal thinker here: Can imagine smells (and 3D scenes, and musical sounds).

Strongly verbal thinker here: weak "mind's eye" (or nose, or ear). I can remember and later identify images, music, etc with a high degree of accuracy, but when I call something up for "internal recall" my memory will almost always lack the fine detail of reality. It's very rare that I can "play back" or "conjure up" something in my head vividly. I don't absolutely require an internal monologue to think. With some things, like sports or gaming, there's a lot of non-verbal processing going on.

I can do reasonably complex verbal, mathematical, or IT work just in my head, and often have an internal monologue running while doing so. It not that my working memory[1] is especially good, it's just that if I'm spending more than a couple hours on it, I've mostly memorized it, so I can think about the solution, or at least the next step or steps, and then type or write them out. (Closing my eyes can help eliminate distractions, but isn't required. Good headphones playing something non-intrusive and blocking out audible distractions are at least as important, probably more important.)

What I can't do in my head is solve complex problems in real 3D space. If I'm trying to fit components into a box for a hobby project, or doing some moderately complicated carpentry for a home-improvement project, I prefer being hands-on. Need to be hands-on, really. I can't fit the pieces together in my head, even if I'm looking at a page full of all relevant measurements. 3D modeling software is okay, pencil and paper and drawing tools a very poor and painful substitute.

Interestingly, when I'm working with a hands-on project is one of the few times when I can make a very sharp mental picture. I can be looking at a piece of lumber, or a bare enclosure, and know it exactly what it will look like when I'm done.

1 - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_memory

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#512

Post by bonoboTP » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 1:34 AM UTC

vitaflo wrote: post #475

xvector wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, I always thought that when a novelist describes the “voice in the head” of a character, or when a coworker does the same, they are trying to convey thought over a medium incapable of conveying true thought. I never imagined that that was the actual thought !

Do you not hear music in your head? Like I have a song running through my mind right now, lyrics and all. No visuals just the music. If you don’t hear a voice in your head wouldn’t that mean you can’t ever hear music in your head either?

Other person here: I can only hear realistic sounds and visualize realistic images when I'm in a half-asleep state or in dreams. Otherwise it's very blunt. For example I cannot realistically hear music in my mind, I can imagine myself humming it though (and my vocal muscles ever so slightly tense up if I do), and I can imagine myself speaking in the same way, but it's mostly a very faint thing, and is mostly about imagined movement of my mouth etc., rather than sound. E.g. imagine clapping your hands as a motoric action, but imagine them in your hand, not the visual of it, but imagine what it would feel like in your arms and hands. It's a bit going in that direction with my imagined speech.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#513

Post by ken » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 1:35 AM UTC

rayiner wrote: post #384

lqet wrote: post #314

I have a serious question to people here describing themselves (as I understand it) as thinking in words and whole sentences: How can you think about concepts which cannot be put into words or for which no words exist? Do you have to come up with elaborate verbal descriptions of abstract concepts in your head before you can think about them? If so, don't you think that any verbal description is essentially incomplete…

What is a concept which cannot be put into words?

> When I was a kid growing up in Far Rockaway, I had a friend named Bernie Walker. We both had "labs" at home, and we would do various "experiments." One time, we were discussing something -- we must have been 11 or 12 at the time -- and I said, "But thinking is nothing but talking to yourself inside."

> "Oh yeah?" Bernie said. "Do you know the crazy shape of the crankshaft in a car?"

> "Yeah, what of it?"

> "Good. Now tell me: how did you describe it when you were talking to yourself?"

- "What Do You Care What Other People Think?", Richard Feynman

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#514

Post by zipwitch » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 1:36 AM UTC

misterprime wrote: post #423

JabavuAdams wrote: post #401

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concisely describe the space battle you see in your mind's eye in less than 0.5 seconds. It's not that it can't be described. It's that I'm looking at / living a shot from a movie in realtime or faster than realtime. If I tried to write that out ... it would be too slow and actually over-specified.

Yeah: verbal thinker here. Can visualize imagined scenes and objects no problem.

Verbal thinker hear as well. Weak mind's eye, but imagined scenes or objects are actually easier to visualize and describe than memories of real objects or places, most of the time.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#515

Post by henrikschroder » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 1:36 AM UTC

JasonFruit wrote: post #51

Wowfunhappy wrote: post #26

Something I discovered within the past year is that if I know a song fairly well, I can "play it" silently in my head, and be entertained. The experience isn't quite as emotionally resonate as listening with headphones, but it's not so far off either. It's useful when I'm bored. ...can anyone else do this? I actually find it supremely weird.

Most well-trained musicians can read a score and construct the sounds mentally. It's an essential skill for composers and conductors, and useful for others.

In the aphantasia discussions that are closely related to this, it was revealed that some graphical artists have it and actually can't visualize things in their head, yet they're able to draw things on command.

Which is completely mind-boggling to me.

So there's probably people who can compose music without being able to audiolize it in their heads first, as strange as that sounds.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#516

Post by notJim » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 1:36 AM UTC

WJW wrote: post #352

_y5hn wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Now your read this sentence in Darth Vader voice. Not the first time though.

Just wanted to comment that I don't seem to be able to do internal Darth Vader voice. No idea why.

Can you do an impression of Darth Vader out loud? Just curious, because when I do Darth Vader voice in my head, I get a strong urge to do it out loud. Makes me wonder if they're connected.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#517

Post by bonoboTP » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 1:37 AM UTC

csomar wrote: post #480

pier25 wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> the process is spontaneous and involuntary Do you consider that the parts of yourself that are not conscious are in fact not part of yourself? Otherwise it cannot be involuntary. Some part of you has decided to have those thoughts. Ex nihilo nihil fit.

I guess the idea is that the part that makes decisions is not under your control and you are just an "observer" who justifies what this "person" is doing. It is a scary thing if true, but can help in understanding why things are the way they are.

Okay, let's say you decide to stop justifying it. Does that result in any material difference in the real universe? If yes, congrats, you just made a fully voluntary impact on the world.

If you mean you're an observer and your judgement is fully isolated from any future behavior of the unconscious, then I'd be interested in hearing an elaborated version.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#518

Post by bonoboTP » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 1:41 AM UTC

asciimo wrote: post #335

findthewords wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

6 years ago I tried relaxing and listen to smooth jazz or something. Being in the moment and just observing my surrounding with hyperfocus was very pleasant. Time felt infinite. Time was now. I have these lapses every now and then, but I wouldn't have it as my new normal. Without your thoughts you only your body, an animal. Language is what expands human sphere of influence beyond what we see, taste and feel. The "No…

It's extremely likely that many non-human animals have similar thoughts. Put another way, it's extremely unlikely that humans have adopted almost all our traits from other animals, except for the inner monologue.

Once while walking home I had an almost revelatory experience. I looked at a car in an intersection and I felt speechless and toughtless, just looking at the car. Of course I don't know how animals "feel" internally, but I felt like this must be how dogs or deer see the world. It was very brief and is hard to explain. (No I didn't take any drugs.)

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#519

Post by kaffeemitsahne » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 1:43 AM UTC

_y5hn wrote: post #328

keenmaster wrote: post #311

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have learned to be cautious with two very different types of people (this is not a scientific exercise, take with a grain of salt): - One is people who are constantly negative and cast stones everywhere, but offset that negativity with charm. They can accrue a network of Stockholm-esque followers that would say "he's not an asshole, he's actually a really sweet person." When they perceive a threat from you, or they…

For 1 alot of info on "gaslighting" online. For 2, there needs to be reciprocity and honesty (even silent). We shouldn't regard ourselves as below/above, but may be ingrained and diminishing.

Has there been a deflation of the word "gaslighting" recently? I used to understand it as "making person X or others believe person X is crazy (in order to discredit them)" but I see it used much more widely nowadays and I don't really see what it has to do with the scenario in question.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#520

Post by behnamoh » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 1:44 AM UTC

grawprog wrote: post #365

OGWhales wrote: post #283

I took mushrooms once and only about a month after the trip did I realize I hadn’t been using an internal dialogue since the trip. It started up again and hasn’t really stopped since. It was unnerving.

Yeah mushrooms will do this. It's not a bad thing to be able to quiet your mind. It's nice to have an internal monologue but once you've had that silence it's good to learn how to bring it back when you need it. Mushrooms helped show me what it was like quiet so I could do it myself without them.

exactly! I'm so tired of this ongoing voice in my head which is more like a constant noise that takes control of my emotions and disrupts my productivity.