Not everyone has an internal monologue • Hacker News Board

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#421

Post by JabavuAdams » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 12:09 AM UTC

findthewords wrote: post #293

warent wrote: post #262

This isn't so hard to understand if you've ever meditated. It becomes clearer that the internal monologue is a process that just runs on its own almost endlessly, and the feeling that we control it is mostly just an illusion. You can test this for yourself by trying to find out what your next thought is going to be. You never know until you have it, which indicates that the process is spontaneous and involuntary. I h…

6 years ago I tried relaxing and listen to smooth jazz or something. Being in the moment and just observing my surrounding with hyperfocus was very pleasant. Time felt infinite. Time was now. I have these lapses every now and then, but I wouldn't have it as my new normal. Without your thoughts you only your body, an animal. Language is what expands human sphere of influence beyond what we see, taste and feel. The "No…

> Without your thoughts you only your body, an animal. Language is what expands human sphere of influence beyond what we see, taste and feel.

This is nonsense. Geoffrey Hinton pretty much demolished this. Language goes in, and language comes out, but your thoughts aren't little word-symbols in your head. They're patterns of activation. Language is a by-product, not the essential thing. As I pause while writing this, I'm visualizing a machine part, rotating it in my head, animating screws going into it and out of it, and oh, it just turned into a banana and walked away.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#422

Post by jschwartzi » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 12:10 AM UTC

lincolnq wrote: post #398

rayiner wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a concept which cannot be put into words?

For me, scents are rich sensory experiences. Yet I can’t describe cinnamon to you, other than that it smells like cinnamon. It’s like an opaque pointer, I can compare equality but not inspect it beyond that.

It's a quale: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qualia

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#423

Post by misterprime » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 12:12 AM UTC

JabavuAdams wrote: post #401

rayiner wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a concept which cannot be put into words?

Concisely describe the space battle you see in your mind's eye in less than 0.5 seconds. It's not that it can't be described. It's that I'm looking at / living a shot from a movie in realtime or faster than realtime. If I tried to write that out ... it would be too slow and actually over-specified.

Yeah: verbal thinker here. Can visualize imagined scenes and objects no problem.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#424

Post by jdironman » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 12:12 AM UTC

stellar678 wrote: post #406

phkahler wrote: post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was a blog linked here some time ago where the author turned off his internal dialog and was able to observe his more automatic behavior. I recall trying it on my way to work and was fascinated. It was not like meditation, but I was still suspicious of the safety. This piece just reminds me that I need to try it again, but I dont recall how.

Can you try to dig that up and share it with us? It sounds a lot like some versions of meditation, but I'd be really interested to read it.

I dont know how to save my place to come back to a comment on mobile, but I too am curious about this.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#425

Post by misterprime » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 12:12 AM UTC

lincolnq wrote: post #398

rayiner wrote: post #384

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is a concept which cannot be put into words?

For me, scents are rich sensory experiences. Yet I can’t describe cinnamon to you, other than that it smells like cinnamon. It’s like an opaque pointer, I can compare equality but not inspect it beyond that.

Verbal thinker here: Can imagine smells (and 3D scenes, and musical sounds).

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#426

Post by mindways » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 12:13 AM UTC

lqet wrote: post #314

I have a serious question to people here describing themselves (as I understand it) as thinking in words and whole sentences: How can you think about concepts which cannot be put into words or for which no words exist? Do you have to come up with elaborate verbal descriptions of abstract concepts in your head before you can think about them? If so, don't you think that any verbal description is essentially incomplete…

A couple ways:

1) By thinking about them in other modes. I have an internal monologue, but it's not so much "the only way I can think" as "a thing that happens that comments as I think, and can be used to talk through things in my head". Eg: I'm also a pretty strong visual/spatial thinker, I can recall scents OK, and I'm reasonably facile with numbers; all of these sorts of thinking / recollection feel different as I do them.

Some may involve the inner monologue in an assistive role - eg, for math, my mental voice will often either narrate or speak key numbers as I complete steps, which allows me to use audio-memory as well as visual-memory to keep track of all the things I'm operating on.

2) Dynamically created neologisms that refer to particular not-easily-describable thoughts. Though in many cases, my brain may not create an actual word but just think "THAT thing" where "THAT" is accompanied by the concept in question, or some association/shorthand of it.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#427

Post by blamestross » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 12:14 AM UTC

So I'm mostly one of these people. I can plan what I am about write/say (but I don't have to) and I can "hear my own void in my head" but only with intent. I have to TRY and have a monologue. It gets kinda tiring after a while.

All these questions about "how can you think and reason". In general you just know things and do them. Even when I am meditating and reflecting I don't really use language. Language is the annoying translation layer at the end to communicate with others.

When it comes to reasoning, I have a PhD. I seem to be able to work things out. I'm not a philosophical zombie. This whole "language is essence of reason" idea is BS. Writing/speaking out big arguments does help keep them organized. I did often have difficulty with "knowing" something without being able to explain or reason why when I was growing up. I've gotten better at introspection as I got older and it has helped. Often the answer just is: "the magic heuristic in my head said so"

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#428

Post by CriticalCathed » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 12:14 AM UTC

donatj wrote: post #107

For myself personally, it depends on what I'm thinking about. Thinking about writing this sentence, I hear each of the words I'm going to type in my head before I type them. However, if I'm working out how to assemble a table, I'm not hearing "And now I screw the leg on" I just abstractly know that's what I'm going to do. I have to imagine that's the case for at least most people. Thinking out complicated abstract co…

As with the ostensible Aphantasia I believe that this is a problem with people being able to describe their inner experiences accurately. It makes way more sense to me that >99% of people fall into the behavior category that you described, rather than that 10% of people don't have an internal monologue.

FWIW, my experience lines up very closely to yours.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#429

Post by JabavuAdams » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 12:14 AM UTC

ericmcer wrote: post #336

This doesn't make any sense to me, even his example: 'One person even mentioned that when they do voice overs in movies of people’s thoughts, they “wished that it was real.”' How can they form the thought 'I wish that was real' if they have no monologue? And to convey that thought they just open their mouth and spew forth a sentence with no knowledge of its shape?

> How can they form the thought 'I wish that was real' if they have no monologue?

Guessing -- a feeling of wistfulness and desire related to the sentence they just read?

> And to convey that thought they just open their mouth and spew forth a sentence with no knowledge of its shape?

I don't understand what this means. Do you know what you're going to say, before you say it? I mean the actual words? I have the intent to convey some information or meaning, but I don't know the exact words I'll say until I'm saying them. I've queued up intent or agreement or objections but in a normal conversation I don't hear the words until they come out of my mouth.

Re: Not everyone has an internal monologue

#430

Post by warent » Fri, Jan 31, 2020, 12:15 AM UTC

pier25 wrote: post #399

warent wrote: post #262

This isn't so hard to understand if you've ever meditated. It becomes clearer that the internal monologue is a process that just runs on its own almost endlessly, and the feeling that we control it is mostly just an illusion. You can test this for yourself by trying to find out what your next thought is going to be. You never know until you have it, which indicates that the process is spontaneous and involuntary. I h…

> the process is spontaneous and involuntary Do you consider that the parts of yourself that are not conscious are in fact not part of yourself? Otherwise it cannot be involuntary. Some part of you has decided to have those thoughts. Ex nihilo nihil fit.

I'm not sure what point you're making, but it sounds like this is less about how you define the self and more about how you define involuntary. The heartbeat is an involuntary action and is simultaneously part of yourself. That's all I mean.