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How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

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Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#131

Post by rahimnathwani »

NoSorryCannot wrote: post #129
rahimnathwani wrote: post #127

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"The people most steadfast about traffic laws get punished at the pleasure of people who flout them, which doesn't seem correct." Exactly. Each person acting in their own self-interest causes a reduction in road capacity and longer journey times. Those who try to stay in the right-most lane that's going their speed don't gain anything for themselves, as they only increase road capacity for people behind them.

That's a bit of a cherry pick. I don't disagree with upholding the principle of the social good. But two things. Tragedy of the commons. You're arguing that some drivers should elect to have poor travel times to, frankly, accommodate those who are breaking the law. Maybe the law should be changed (different speed limits are bad) and more zealously enforced. Second, your greatest responsibility on the road is safety a…

You are right on all points, and just to clarify:

- I'm not saying that minimising your own journey time should be your only or main objective

- I'm not saying that minimising other people's journey time should be your only or main objective

My observation (no judgment) is that we'd each like less traffic in front of us, but it's most convenient for us to drive in a way that slightly increases traffic for those behind us.

Whether this is good or bad, I don't know. On the 280 and 101, it's common to see cars driving 80+, when the posted speed limit is 65. Perhaps better lane discipline would increase those speeds and make the roads less safe...

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#132

Post by alamortsubite »

cameldrv wrote: post #128
alamortsubite wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the right idea, but let's not stop there. Why not also tax privately registered vehicles to some degree by their mass? I also like the idea of making fines for moving violations somewhat proportional to vehicle mass. The danger posed to others by a 150 lb moped pales in comparison to that of a 4500 lb pickup truck. At least in the U.S., a ticket for speeding 50% over the limit through a residential neighborho…

Because "privately registered" vehicles don't matter for purposes of road damage. A fully loaded semi is 18,000 lbs per axle. A really huge personal vehicle, an F-350, is 4000 lbs per axle. That's 4.5x the weight, 4.5^4=410, so the semi is doing 410x as much damage. There's really no point in trying to tax personal vehicles for road damage when over 99% of the damage is being done by trucks.

Where are you getting your "over 99%" figure?

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#133

Post by nitwit005 »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #85
slowhand09 wrote: post #57

I think of this as I drive 30ish miles each way to work. 5 miles of surface roads, 19 miles of interstate (2 lanes each way), and 6 miles of surface (2 lanes each way). One cause for increased construction is the need for more capacity. My frequent lament is poor driving habits. We have regular instances of sub-optimal speeds in both lanes. A 65 mph limit and vehicles driving 55mph in both lanes, frequently with 1/4…

I was surprised to read this in the California DMV driver handbook: "If you can choose among three lanes, pick the middle lane for the smoothest driving." When I learned to drive (in the UK), the official guidance was to stay in the left-most lane except when overtaking. And then, after overtaking, to immediately return to the left lane.

California has a lower speed limit of 55 mph for trucks: https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/codes_displaySectio...

This means that they generally stay in the rightmost lane, as slower traffic is supposed to keep right.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#134

Post by jdsully »

jhloa2 wrote: post #81
lukasm wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Concrete is pretty much the only alternative that can handle 40+ tonnes trucks and be cost effective. It will last longer, but it's more expensive to build - could be cheaper on the long run. You get a bit more tire noise and less traction than on the asphalt.

Freeze/thaw cycles seem to absolutely destroy the few segments of concrete roads we have around here. They don't seem to last more than 2 winters.

Many freeways around Toronto use concrete and according to the MTO it is cheaper. But the deciding factor appears to be the number of trucks passing the stretch of road. Concretes durability under weight more than offsets the decay from weather.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#135

Post by [deleted] »

alamortsubite wrote: post #132
cameldrv wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because "privately registered" vehicles don't matter for purposes of road damage. A fully loaded semi is 18,000 lbs per axle. A really huge personal vehicle, an F-350, is 4000 lbs per axle. That's 4.5x the weight, 4.5^4=410, so the semi is doing 410x as much damage. There's really no point in trying to tax personal vehicles for road damage when over 99% of the damage is being done by trucks.

Where are you getting your "over 99%" figure?

[deleted]

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#136

Post by beerandt »

alamortsubite wrote: post #132
cameldrv wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because "privately registered" vehicles don't matter for purposes of road damage. A fully loaded semi is 18,000 lbs per axle. A really huge personal vehicle, an F-350, is 4000 lbs per axle. That's 4.5x the weight, 4.5^4=410, so the semi is doing 410x as much damage. There's really no point in trying to tax personal vehicles for road damage when over 99% of the damage is being done by trucks.

Where are you getting your "over 99%" figure?

You need to approach or exceed a roads per-axel weight limit to do any damage or serious wear.

Trucks and permit loads are pretty much the only things that get close.

Beyond the elastic limit, damage is an exponential function of the pavement loading, but only once that certain minimum psf is hit.

For the majority of a highway's loading curve, the damage-per-force is essentially nil. Plastic deformation and serious fatigue only start as you approach the design limits.

It's 99%+ because cars don't do any real wear or damage to pavement from typical use.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#137

Post by beerandt »

epicureanideal wrote: post #3
ryanar wrote: post #2

I feel like I am missing something here, a mile of road in a rural area costs $1,500,000 to reconstruct? How do small towns afford to maintain their roads?? Perhaps there are many costs that don't inflate as the number of miles increases, like the equipment needed to break down and repave the roads?

I would be very interested to see the breakdown of raw materials, equipment, labor, and various fees.

Most states transportation departments publish spreadsheets with itemized costs for recent bid lettings, as well as quarterly summaries with stats by item number. You need to be familiar with the items specs to know exactly what's included (ie installed cost vs material provided cost, etc), but it's a start.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#138

Post by ummonk »

davidw wrote: post #109
SubuSS wrote: post #103

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you thinking of dollar revenue as an average OR considering suburbian dollar revenue separate? You'd think the suburbia also brings in more cash to the government (I got no sources).

It really doesn't, on a per acre basis. https://www.strongtowns.org/journal/2018/2/1/the-surprising-...

The discussion was about per-person costs, so per-acre revenues are irrelevant.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#139

Post by jibe »

rahimnathwani wrote: post #85
slowhand09 wrote: post #57

I think of this as I drive 30ish miles each way to work. 5 miles of surface roads, 19 miles of interstate (2 lanes each way), and 6 miles of surface (2 lanes each way). One cause for increased construction is the need for more capacity. My frequent lament is poor driving habits. We have regular instances of sub-optimal speeds in both lanes. A 65 mph limit and vehicles driving 55mph in both lanes, frequently with 1/4…

I was surprised to read this in the California DMV driver handbook: "If you can choose among three lanes, pick the middle lane for the smoothest driving." When I learned to drive (in the UK), the official guidance was to stay in the left-most lane except when overtaking. And then, after overtaking, to immediately return to the left lane.

Wait a sec, you drive on the opposite side of the road in the UK, so the advice to stay in the left lane except for overtaking is the equivalent of the advice here to stay to the right, or out of the left lane except when passing.

Re: How Much Does a Mile of Road Cost?

#140

Post by lmm »

AcerbicZero wrote: post #91
dougweltman wrote: post #7

This does not address a larger question: how much does a mile of road cost to keep ? This is the installed base question. Consider the amount of road that has been built out in the US relative to the populations that road is serving. Maintenance and expansion is paid out mainly from state and local taxes. That's an enormous civilizational overhead the US contends with, not to mention the economic cost of a large port…

Look all you want, but road maintenance costs are primarily a subsidy for the trucking industry, and by extension the businesses that rely on them. Businesses that are primarily located in.....cities. If Middletown USA didn't have to worry about 80,000 lbs trucks hauling kombucha to your local bodega tearing up their roads, perhaps road costs would be a bit more in-line with reality. More importantly if we focused mo…

The 80,000lb trucks aren't supplying the inner-city bodegas, they're supplying the out-of-town malls the suburb model relies on. I agree with getting road use charged in line with what it costs, but the result is going to be that the cities stop subsidizing the suburbs so much.
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