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David Rosenhan’s fraudulent Thud experiment set back psychiatry for decades

spectator.co.uk

11–20 of 127 posts

Re: David Rosenhan’s fraudulent Thud experiment set back psychiatry for decades

#11

While this is fascinating and I'm glad to have read it, it doesn't substantiate that this experiment set back psychiatry. The fact that the DSM-IV was prompted or encouraged by the experiment is suggested, but there's no argument for it. Even beyond that, the article doesn't even hint at an argument that the DSM-IV set back psychiatry (except offering the bare assertion that reductionism is false). Of course, the DSM…

How many mental hospitals were closed in the 80s due to this?

Re: David Rosenhan’s fraudulent Thud experiment set back psychiatry for decades

#12

While this is fascinating and I'm glad to have read it, it doesn't substantiate that this experiment set back psychiatry. The fact that the DSM-IV was prompted or encouraged by the experiment is suggested, but there's no argument for it. Even beyond that, the article doesn't even hint at an argument that the DSM-IV set back psychiatry (except offering the bare assertion that reductionism is false). Of course, the DSM…

The DSM is controversial because it's only scientific until political groups take interest. The trans community lobbied and bothered academics over the DSM's definition for Trans people until the academics threw up their hands and decided their funding wasn't good enough to justify having a spine and so the definition in the DSM was changed with a minimum of real science to justify it. That's psychology as a field in a nutshell.

Re: David Rosenhan’s fraudulent Thud experiment set back psychiatry for decades

#14
The experiment sounds plausible, whether or not it happened or was done properly. But the claimed response of the hospitals also sounds perfectly reasonable to me. What do people expect?

A virtually infinite number of things can cause symptoms which have some overlap with schizophrenia, and that's why today (I'm not an expert, but I'm assuming what I know of is representative) on intake they classify someone as "schizophreniform" - apparently a fancy way to say "looks like/might be schizophrenia" without committing to anything.

For every person that has a chronic condition, there are going to be many that have one episode and it never recurs. Maybe it was a virus. Maybe they had some weird allergic reaction. Hospitals are never going to know for sure what's wrong with everyone, so the humane thing is not to insist they determine whether the remainder is "real" or not.

Being involuntarily admitted as a psych patient has permanent consequences, and it's uncomfortable to think about someone who doesn't "deserve" the stigma being caught up in it. I think an obsession with this scenario drives the people who crusade against psychiatry. But putting more pressure on medical professionals to always get it right is only liable to make things worse. You can't get better results by applying thumbscrews to people who genuinely try their best to deal with a fundamentally intractable problem.

This did jump out at me:

"then, as now, no scans, no blood tests, no laboratory findings allowed them to distinguish the mad from the sane"

In the 21st century, I believe hospitals in the US typically screen for likely drugs first, when someone appears to have psychotic symptoms. But they also (at least where I know about) do pretty comprehensive blood tests that show clear metabolic abnormalities and then just discard the results when they don't know what it means. So in a sense, sure, there's no blood test for mental symptoms, and yet if positive tests for various things are routinely met with a shrug and typical psychotropic drugs administered, then the statement is misleading.

Re: David Rosenhan’s fraudulent Thud experiment set back psychiatry for decades

#15
Thoughts:

The problem of false priors, deliberate misdirection, and motivated reasoning are insidious. Having to un-learn false models is difficult and expensive, personally, bit especially socially.

Even if Rosenhan's experiment was a fraud, the notion that psychiatric institutions or the field of psychology does not engage in the practice of arbitrary, thinly-supported, or entirely fictitious diagnosis, or failure to account for changes in condition, at least at times isn't disproved. And ... at least to my lay understanding ... this does seem to manifest elsewhere than in Rosenhan's accounts.

There are two competing sets of motivated reasoning to be considered here, which makes determination of ground truth that much more difficult.

On false priors, I've been familiar for a time with the notion of "Wittgenstein's Ladder", a/k/a "Lies told to children" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wittgenstein%27s_ladder):

My propositions serve as elucidations in the following way: anyone who understands me eventually recognizes them as nonsensical, when he has used them—as steps—to climb beyond them. (He must, so to speak, throw away the ladder after he has climbed up it.)

He must transcend these propositions, and then he will see the world aright.

-- Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus 6.54

This leads to the challenge over time of finding oneself having climbed the ladder, but in discussions with others, constantly confronted with it, and having to explain around or over it. Wittgenstein's Ladder becomes, when erected horizontally across a passage of understanding rather than vertically to greater heights or across gulfs, Wittgenstein's Barricade.

It's this constant having-to-retread-fundamentals which seems to actively impede further development of knowledge and understanding, and which I've found increasingly intolerable in much popular media and discussion. Worse when it's not even the fundamentals which are being retread, but someone's self-serving current reformulation (often worse than the original). See Schopenhauer's "On Authorship".

Re: David Rosenhan’s fraudulent Thud experiment set back psychiatry for decades

#17

This is the first time I'm hearing that it was a hoax from the start. I've heard this study referenced more times than I can count in discussions on mental illness and mental hospitals. Could it really be that it was complete horseshit?

Certainly the original paper failed even the most basic norms, and large parts of if were clearly fabricated, and the remaining ones cannot be verified now.

Ultimately he claimed to have eight pseudo-patients, but investigation has turned up three, and none match what was described in the paper. (Eg, Rosenhan said it was easy to be admitted, even after showing limited symptoms, but he was actually only admitted after showing extreme symptoms. He said life while admitted was dreadful, but one of the subjects was dropped because he found it peaceful and helpful.)

Occam's razor suggests that there were only 3-4, he lied about their results, and made up the rest. But maybe there were some others, and maybe some of them actually had experiences similar to the paper? But even so, at best, he lied, filtered data, and reported very mixed results as being anything but. More likely....yes, complete horseshit.

There's no real defence of his work possible; at this point it's just speculating over whether it was all lies, or just a misleading mixture of lies and truth, and trying to estimate the damage it did.

Re: David Rosenhan’s fraudulent Thud experiment set back psychiatry for decades

#18

The experiment sounds plausible, whether or not it happened or was done properly. But the claimed response of the hospitals also sounds perfectly reasonable to me. What do people expect? A virtually infinite number of things can cause symptoms which have some overlap with schizophrenia, and that's why today (I'm not an expert, but I'm assuming what I know of is representative) on intake they classify someone as "schi…

> But the claimed response of the hospitals also sounds perfectly reasonable to me.

Keep in mind, a major part of his paper was about how the pseudo-patients were admitted after describing extremely limited and mild symptoms. And a major part of the investigation was determining that, at least in one case, this is untrue; Rosenhan claimed to have extremely severe symptoms, including suicidal ideation.

In other words, it now sounds like the hospitals responded reasonably, but Rosenhan's paper claimed something quite different.

Re: David Rosenhan’s fraudulent Thud experiment set back psychiatry for decades

#19

While this is fascinating and I'm glad to have read it, it doesn't substantiate that this experiment set back psychiatry. The fact that the DSM-IV was prompted or encouraged by the experiment is suggested, but there's no argument for it. Even beyond that, the article doesn't even hint at an argument that the DSM-IV set back psychiatry (except offering the bare assertion that reductionism is false). Of course, the DSM…

This is standard fare for the source. The Spectator generally pick one of the authors' bugbears (usually Muslims, The Left, or Political Correctness Gone Mad), write a beautifully written and entertaining piece, all the time aggressively mixing and conflating fact and fiction with a slightly sneering tone. For example: https://outline.com/nMzA8N

Makes the site name a bit on the nose, doesn't it?

Re: David Rosenhan’s fraudulent Thud experiment set back psychiatry for decades

#20

While this is fascinating and I'm glad to have read it, it doesn't substantiate that this experiment set back psychiatry. The fact that the DSM-IV was prompted or encouraged by the experiment is suggested, but there's no argument for it. Even beyond that, the article doesn't even hint at an argument that the DSM-IV set back psychiatry (except offering the bare assertion that reductionism is false). Of course, the DSM…

Yeah, I wish the article was more clear on why Rosenhan's article was important and what exactly is claimed in The Great Pretender.

Re-reading the article, It seems to suggest that it undermined public trust in forced psychiatric treatment. I can only guess that the author believes this was for the worse and is the titular setback?

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